base2 

So I started a thread recently about a carbon wonder bike I rode & hated.

I used to love that bike & amassed a lot of miles & some very long rides on it.

Eventually, it fell out of favor & one day I realized it hadn't been rode in a long time. The other bikes in the stable just we're more favorable. So, I stuck Carbon Wonder on a smart trainer to hammer out some miles.

After the "I hate this" realization & BF thread about it, I took it for a ride to confirm I hated it.

True. I did.

During that ride though something jammed between the non-drive side crank arm damaging the paint & causing the damaged area to not pass the coin tap test.

I took it to the dealer to investigate options. Per Cervelo, Cervelo has discontinued it's crash replacement program until late 2022. As I am between sizes, the hope was to come out of this with a frame 1 size smaller for an even better fit.

Ruckus Composites does do repairs & are local-ish. But I'm not sure any repair will be worth the cost for a frame I hate, aren't going to ride & likely can't be sold for the cost of the repair. Previously damaged carbon frames are next to worthless or not worth the effort to sell. The market has spoken.

Any time is a good time for new frame time & I have plenty of bike bits around. Both Extralite & AX-Lightness make rim braked road bike premium carbon frames. So why not start the search there?

Does anyone here have any experience with either? Both are handmade of European (German & Italian) origin. Both are of conventional standards, acceptable weight, accept parts I have on hand & neither has huge stupid decals or a cult following here in the U.S. to pester me with questions or bother me with product worship. What's not to love?

Is the presence of a UCI approved sticker on AX's seat tube & the 185 extra grams (frame+fork) really worth the extra $400 of the AX-Lightness? What does the sticker & extra 1/2 pound of weight get me besides a $400 lighter wallet? Piece of mind? Access to races I won't enter that I wouldn't win, anyhow?

Pratt

With no knowledge of either frame maker, and little more about carbon frames, all I have to offer is that 185 grams is only about 40% of the 454 grams in a pound. Does that make it better or worse?

Bruizer

Sorry to hijack your thread, but what is the coin tap test? Again sorry for the interruption.
I’ve never heard of either frame, so that will give me something to look up when I have time.

easyupbug 

Tap a DT or TT in the mid-section and you should hear a sharp clear tone that should indicate good order and if a dulled tone a potential problem area. I believe this may work if one is checking out what looks to be a crack in paint in a long clear tube run, worried it may be worse. I think the use of this test is limited in that bicycle carbon frame layup, complicated shapes and discontinuities (as in the OPs case) can make sound unreliable and the more sophisticated testing done by a repair shop is worth the time and trouble.

chaadster

I know both companies for their components, but have never used them, often because I run up against their rider weight limits. I didn’t know either did frames, but if you’re over 200lbs, it may be wise to check see if the have any rider weight restrictions.

Actually, I think I did look at Extralight frames a few years ago, but I don’t remember anything about them.

Hiro11

My limited understanding here: both brands are famous for esoteric, very high end components for well-heeled bike weight obsessives. Neither brand is particularly well known as a frame maker. I know both the AX-Lightness VIAL and Extralite SCR-058 are aged designs, there's nothing really wrong with them but they both represent state of the art in about 2015 and are highly optimized for "lower weight at all cost" fetishists. It's a niche market. As a result, these frames are rare and you'll have better luck over on that other forum with people obsessed with bike weight. I'm sure these frames are well made, but you're going to struggle to find many people who own them.

Is this a rim brake thing? Why go with such obscure, stock, super-pricey import brands with aging designs? If you'll consider disc brakes, maybe look into high end domestic carbon makers like Argonaut and Alchemy? How about Ti? Mosaic, Seven, Firefly, Moots etc. make sweet stuff with excellent quality.

chaadster

Since Hiro11 brought the matter up, I’d certainly consider Sarto a preferred, Italian, handmade carbon fiber frame.

https://www.sartobikes.com/en/

At 51, I kind of feel like I need to get moving on the bike-of-a-lifetime thing, which is why Sarto is on my short “bucket list.” It’ll probably go down with them saying something like, “oh, but for 108kg…this is not possible,” but I’d like to try, see.

icemilkcoffee 

You mean the more expensive frame is heavier? Why would you pay more for a heavier frame?

biker128pedal

Why not Calfee Design or Argonaut? May get a custom fit.

ColonelSanders

Maybe less flex in the frame and longer life?

base2 

That's what I'm trying to figure out. What detail am I missing? Or is it simply the difference between local economies, brand value & UCI compliance?

PeteHski

I've just turned 54 and was thinking the same thing. I looked at all manner of boutique exotica but then I just ordered an off-the-shelf Canyon for less than half the price. I'm sure it will ride just as well and I won't worry about scratching it so much.

rosefarts

A boutique frame maker is a company who makes high end bikes that aren’t mass produced.

Usually associated with steel frames in our modern day but could apply to hand layered carbon just the same.

It’s an extremely nice bike that almost nobody else has. What’s so hard to understand?


Is the bike so light that they add weight to keep it race legal? If so, are you entering any UCI sanctioned events? Are you doing well enough that your bike might be scrutinized? No to either of these questions and get the lighter one.

shelbyfv

Probably little to no chance someone here has either of those frames. Soooo, maybe a reset? Why carbon if you don't like the ride? I'm guessing you mostly ride solo and you aren't a mileage junkie. You won't notice a pound or so one way or the other. Maybe a custom steel or Ti with a paint job you really like? Could be a fun process.

PeteHski

All carbon frames are hand laid unless using stock carbon tube - which ironically is what most of the boutique brands use. So they just cut the tubes to length and wrap the joints with carbon sheet.

chaadster

Just to note it, Sarto make not only their own tubes, but also monocoque seat- and chainstay structures.

easyupbug 

The Cervelo R5 is a highly regarded ride with high marks for handling, efficiency, ride quality, etc. How is ordering a European bike going to address your issues unless weight is the only issue with your current ride? As suggested above I would think working on clarifying exactly what you are looking for or wanting to avoid and starting conversations with the outstanding domestic builders could prove helpful.

shelbyfv

IIRC, Giant does all their own carbon as well.

chaadster

One would expect the world’s largest bike maker to make bikes…

PeteHski

Yes, they manufacture their own carbon sheet rather than buying it in from a third party. But my point was that the lay-up of ALL carbon frames is done by hand regardless of where the sheet comes from. Only carbon tubes are machine wound, which is a different process.

Pratt

My only experience with composite construction is in boats. There it is not the coin test, but the violin test. A well glued hull will resonate, like a violin, or guitar when you tap on the instrument. A 30 footer requires a pretty robust "tap" but the resonance indicates that it is all one piece. An absence of resonance indicates that there is a discontinuity somewhere.

base2 

To answer the question directly: Carbon rides just fine. I ride a handful everyday as they come off my workstand. It's the Cervelo I don't like. I think it's about a half size too big. I made do with a shorter stem & got along this far with it. It's just too stiff for me. It feels "wooden." I didn't know any better. Now that it needs repair, I feel I'm ready to move on.


FWIW: I already own 2 Rodriguez's. One is a Bandito done up CX style but with wider chain stay clearance to clear 700x42 tires. Rodriguez is calling it a Phinny Ridge with the ultralight steel option. Either way, the industry is calling such bikes "all-road," now.

It's a build in progress to keep me busy the last half of 2021, into Winter & will likely change/evolve as the supply chain straightens out.

The other is a Rohloff equipped gravel/touring/travel/camping bike. It runs 559x54 tires, is S&S equipped & designed to carry heavy AF loads across any continent on the planet. It's a bit porky & super stable.

What I don't have is a replacement dedicated high performance road bike frame to swap the Cervelo's parts over to.

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I think I need to think on this. I had a rather esoteric post all typed up. I deleted most of it after I asked myself: "How much high performance road riding did I actually do in 2020/2021?" Maybe, it's possible that the Cervelo doesn't need to be replaced at all. <introspection>

79pmooney

+1 I used to build and sail Moore 24s. Old fashioned polyester resin, mat and cloth/roving but all hand laid, wet out and rolled and stretched to be a taut as a drum when cured. At sea, loud down below!

base2 

In the last 3 weeks since this thread has had activity, have been using the size 58 in the sunny World of Watopia. A blister has formed in the suspect area on the non-drive side chainstay. I contacted Ruckus Composites & they would like to see it. I may drive down to see what they have to say.

I have also been scouring eBay daily for a 2016 Cervelo R5 in a size 56, the next size down from the 58 that I damaged. One finally showed up with 19 watchers on the day the auction posted. When I saw the "Buy It Now" price that was 1/3rd the frames that started this thread & it was a good deal, but comparable to market value, I couldn't stomach losing the opportunity. I mashed the button.

I don't have a shipping confirmation yet, but all has been confirmed as paid for. EBay estimates it will arrive on my birthday...So, happy birthday to me?

Even if the new smaller size R5 is not a match made in heaven, I'll still be ok.
I am ok at this point of my own cycling maturity, if it turns out that owning a "super-bike" halo machine is a swing-&-a-miss for me. I should also consider my self lucky. Market prices being what they are at the moment, it's very possible I'll be able to sell the whole bike for what I have into it since new. It's weird that some things are worth more than the sum of their parts. So as long as the eBay frame makes a complete bike, the situation will resolve with nothing further than a bit of experience & a good story.

Thanks all.
Cheers

Erzulis Boat 

You might also want to check out Enigma. There is a thread about the incredible longevity of their titanium framesets. The guy got 40,000+ miles out of his. If that isn't a ringing testimony to the quality workmanship of the Enigma brand, I don't know what is!