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Help needed with unknown frame

Old 01-22-22, 02:55 PM
  #1  
Nikola88
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Help needed with unknown frame

Please help with identifying frameset.
Traded a mtb frameset for this frame with a dura ace sticker, dont know if its repainted.
​​​​​​Seller did not know what it is.
TopTube c-c 56cm, SeatTube c-c 55.5cm
Rear dropouts are Suntour GS.
It has a braze-on for front derailleur.
Fork is stamped Tange on the steerer, serial number on fork is the same as the one on frame.
Seat tube is 25.8mm but very very tight fit.
BB appears to be iso thread, but non drive side seems a bit loose... so maybe swiss? (Threads are good)
There is no serial numbers on the BB, but on the seat clamp lug is stamped "274503" with big numbers, on the left side of that number is stamped "73" in small numerals.
On the head tube the upper lug has "73" stamped, the lower lug has "63" stamped.
I have tried a wheelset on it, rims are 700c with 33mm tires, rear is slightly rubbing on the brake bridge, front has about 5mm to fork crown, brake reach is about 50mm.

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Old 01-22-22, 03:25 PM
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the lug pattern appears to be BOCAMA Nr. 110/II with added cutout...or it may be a BOCAMA 210/II (not shown in me catalogue)

all braze-ons are likely post-manufacture additions

the combination of BOCAMA lugs with Maeda dropouts is suggestive of a low countries origin

fork appears to be an off-the-shelf Tange Mangalloy

serial placement and format a helpful clue toward an identification of maker

try looking at some of the major marques from Belgium such as Flandria

you may find a match in a short time

date guess: ca. 1974

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tip - suggest first thing is to verify tubing diameters and threading

a Swiss product of this era would be produced with metric tubing

a product of the low countries is overwhelmingly likely to be done to BSC standard although there were a few makers who employed the metric standard


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Last edited by juvela; 01-22-22 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 01-22-22, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
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tip - suggest first thing is to verify tubing diameters and threading

a Swiss product of this era would be produced with metric tubing

a product of the low countries is overwhelmingly likely to be done to BSC standard although there were a few makers who employed the metric standard


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Thanks for the tip, will check the tubes tomorow morning. I checked the bb with some old threaded cups again, the thread is 1.37x24tpi, reverse on drive side, so its not swiss.
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Old 01-22-22, 04:40 PM
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good detective work!

CH eliminated from consideration


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forgot to mention -

seat lug is BOCAMA pattern H/II

bottom bracket shell is BOCAMA model Professionnel -



(one being worn by a 1979 Gazelle Champion Du Monde)

both Flandria & Gazelle employed a great deal of BOCAMA material in their manufactures

suggest to check the ~1974-75 time for a model one up from the base...

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forum member @non-fixie is sure to have more and better information on this for you.

he shall be along anon

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Last edited by juvela; 01-22-22 at 06:53 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 01-23-22, 06:10 AM
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No immediate recognition here. I see why juvela thinks it might be from hereabouts. The one brand he mentions, and which also popped into my head when I saw the lugs is Gazelle. They remind me of some of Gazelle's offerings from the Raleigh period. The serial number format jibes with what Gazelle used, and would put its build date in 1972. If it is a Gazelle it has been heavily reworked and fitted with a replacement fork. Which doesn't sound very likely for what seems to have been a mid range frame at best.

Interesting bike though. And some previous owner must have liked it a lot. Thanks for sharing it.
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Old 01-23-22, 08:18 AM
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one simple check you could make would be to measure the width of the bottom bracket shell

a dimension of 70mm would tend to support the idea of a Flandria origin while a dimension of 68mm would not rule it out

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the lug markings of "60", "63" & "73" indicate the angle in degrees of the respective lug's sockets

a pillar size of 25.8mm is suggestive of hi-tensile frame tubing

---

what be the exhaust header from?

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Old 01-23-22, 10:46 PM
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Thanks guys for the info,

Will measure the bb and tube diameters soon,
Caught the flu (not c19) so im resting for the last 2 days,

The exhaust header is from a mazda 323P, it was bought beacuse of the machined flange, the plan is to make new headers for an b8 engine swap in my demio mini wagon
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Old 01-28-22, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

one simple check you could make would be to measure the width of the bottom bracket shell

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So I measured everything today...
BB shell is 67mm wide, looks to be faced on non drive side, threads are actually swiss, when i tried those iso cups i screwed them in just about 5mm, after threading them in 3/4 of the way they started binding.

Tube diameters (without paint):
Seat tube 28mm
Top tube 26mm
Down tube 26mm
Headtube 32mm

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Old 01-28-22, 08:49 AM
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thanks very much for this additional information

a CH bottom bracket thread is usually considered to limit the national origin to CH & FR

serial placement would seem to eliminate some of the major CH producers such as Allegro, Cilo & Mondia

France had not begun employing Japan frame building bits when this was made which makes one lean toward a CH origin...

perhaps some of our CH experts shall be able to shed illumination here...

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Edit:

estimate your frame to have been produced in the 1974-77 time

here are two links giving an overview of some of the CH marques

the first one unfortunately ends in roughly the early 1960's, at least shows examples from the various producers...

https://www.swissbicycles.com/

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/Switzerland/Swiss.html

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Old 01-29-22, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

thanks very much for this additional information

a CH bottom bracket thread is usually considered to limit the national origin to CH & FR

serial placement would seem to eliminate some of the major CH producers such as Allegro, Cilo & Mondia

France had not begun employing Japan frame building bits when this was made which makes one lean toward a CH origin...

perhaps some of our CH experts shall be able to shed illumination here...

---

Edit:

estimate your frame to have been produced in the 1974-77 time

here are two links giving an overview of some of the CH marques

the first one unfortunately ends in roughly the early 1960's, at least shows examples from the various producers...

Swiss Bicycles | A website about Swiss Bicycles

Swiss Classics

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Thanks for the links, I will look into it.
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