gugie 

If'n you were to need some stainless steel rack tabs, let me know. unterhausen had a bunch laser cut, I went in on the order with him.

scarlson 

So, the rear wheel has to stay forward in the dropouts in order for the fenderline to be good. I thought about drilling and tapping for dropout adjusting screws, but I think it's a bad idea because the rinko package will end up sitting on the backsides of the rear dropouts and messing up the fragile adjusting screws unless I install one of those axle protector stand thingies, and I just don't think I have time for that.

I was thinking about putting in some cheap steel spacers, and I also thought about trying to buy some Surly Monkey Nuts. In the end, I convinced myself that I'd be dissatisfied with anything commercially available, so I CNC milled something and then ruined it with a file and a drill.

Here are the results.





That last one reveals a problem. The chain, when it hits the smallest cog, will surely hang up on that thing. I could probably adjust it with a grinder so that this wouldn't be an issue. But looking at it from this angle, I had an epiphany. What if I spaced the right dropout a bit farther out, and machined a thicker spacer that incorporated a chain rest? Eh?? Then I could shift onto it and rapidly remove the wheel.

Problems I foresee:
1) Having to make a removable stop/detent for the shifter, and having a shifter with this kind of travel. I want to use a bar-end of some sort. Who knows, until I actually set it up? One way to solve this all is to just make the shifter cable length determine the high gear limit, and then when the cable housing is unhooked from the cable stop for rinko the derailleur is allowed to move down to the chain rest. Another way is to use a Shimano STI cable stop (you know, with that little flick-lever to trim the derailleur) on a downtube shifter mount.
2) Asymmetrical quick-release stick-out. Probably not a huge issue, but the quick-release will need to stick out more on one side than on the other. I guess I can bend the springs or move the axle in the hub.

But who wants to see rinko portacatena?! Ready for concours de machines?? Or have I jumped the shark?
If I end up doing a CAD drawing I'll throw it on the Thingiverse so the 3D printing bros can have fun.

scarlson 

Good to know
May be sending an email your way sometime soon! Your spidey sense telling you the rack build must be next??

You're right, and I'm putting it off while I think about it. I want versatility so I'm thinking about a beefy mini rack with a removable large platform. I'm used to commuting with a milk crate containing a laptop bag and a lunch bag, which isn't exactly compatible with what I'm building here, which I'd like to commute and get groceries on as well as ride recreationally on gravel. Not really sure what to do quite yet.

scarlson 

Priorities and build options changed because of the pandemic, so here's an update. I just want to ride this thing, and I don't have access to the machine shop for the foreseeable future, so everything is much harder! So I bought a Velo Orange front rack and an American Classic seatpost. I still made a decaleur for an old SR Custom stem, rather than buying a new Technomic, which was fun.

You can see I had to consider how far the decaleur extends, in order that I wouldn't hit the quill screwing it in. Then the nut can be tightened independently of the decaleur being twisted, in order to secure the bars. If it pivots too much under normal use, I will put either a set screw or some loctite to hold it permanently.



Here's the bike so far. Projected weight is around 26-27lbs. This with a Brooks saddle and Suntour LePree three-pulley derailleur. The wheels are boat anchors more suited to touring, though: Ambrosio Keba rims and Shimano S500 dynamo front/Deore LX rear. With lighter wheels (SP SV-9+Circus Monkey and Pacenti rims) I could get the weight down to 25.5lbs I think. That would be respectable for a randonneuse. I'll see how it rides first. To do that, I need to make that front derailleur cage.


The original paint is kind of reminding me of "rat-rod" patina, which is in fashion among certain car guys. I wonder if I should just spray cheap clearcoat over it for the time being. I just want to ride it for now, and see how everything works.

bark_eater 

You could coat it with Penetrol, if you can find it. Its decidedly not low VOC. I'm pretty sure its Linseed based.

mkeller234

Wow! I love what you have done. I think you are right to ride now, even though it’s not complete. That decailleur you made for the SR stem is fantastic.

52telecaster

While i havnt the skill or resources you have brought to bare on your project, i have just built some inexpensive 650bs and put them on an old miyata 912. It is so damn fun to ride. If yours is half as enjoyable you are going to have a blast.

scarlson 

So, I banged out the front derailleur. What a pain to build! I'm going back to my roots, as I have no machine shop, filing and scraping metal in the basement.

Here it is, in stages.

First, since I have no more heavy tooling, I bought some metal-cutting jigsaw blades and a 50-pack of cheap hacksaw blades from Harbor Freight. I think this was $10 for everything. Then I used a jigsaw left behind by the previous owner of my apartment to saw out the derailleur cage. But it turns out a sharp hacksaw is less onerous and takes just as long and can cut just as tight of curves. This is all in 14 gauge stainless, so it really sucks to work with! The original Herse front derailleur on my tandem is 2mm steel, so 14ga is a bit thicker, but the closest readily available substitute in the USA.


Then I ganged some hacksaw blades to slit the pushrod so I could braze the cage in place. I was confident I'd heard of this technique from an oldtimer, but I can't find any talk of it on the internet. So yeah this is a thing you can do to cut slots: put multiple hacksaw blades on a hacksaw, in a "ganged" fashion.


Then I brazed the inner cage plate in the slot of the pushrod. This is all with turbo torch and Harris Safety-Silv 56. Nothing fancy.



Then I made sure it could do the upshift. This required lengthening the slot in the tube brazed to the frame. More ganged hacksaw blades, this time held together with electrical tape. I call this tool the "Alcatraz Special". I like to reverse them so they cut when you pull instead of when you push, in this scenario. Each time you want to test the "limit screw" function, you have to remove the crank, in order to remove the derailleur. It's a huge pain!
In the end, it would do the upshift, but unfailingly shift the chain off the top. This will be solved by putting on the outer plate. So, onward!


Once I confirmed it could do the upshift, I cut the outer plate. No jigsaw this time, that thing is just a noisier version of what I can do with muscle power. The outer plate is brazed on to the inner plate and the push rod, again with Harris Safety-Silv 56.


Cleaned up and installed, and it shifts!! It actually handles the big jump from 28-48 better than anything I've experienced commercially. Maybe this is why Herse made them even though you could buy them.



All-up, this thing weighs about 180g, including the tube on the frame and the lever. So that's comparable to the lightest available cable-actuated setup with a bar-end shifter, or maybe slightly heavier than a downtube-operated one.

gugie 

Fantastic!

When are you going into production?

scarlson 

$750 for a clamp-on version. Unpainted.

I remember Ron Cooper once remarking in an interview that either framebuilding had gotten harder in his old age, or that the trend toward randonneur cycles was making his job harder for him!
Before building this bike, I didn't get it. You look at a Herse front derailleur and you go "that only has a couple parts, it can't take long!"
And then you build it and you completely agree with the old man by the end. At least I wasn't silly enough to ask any framebuilder to make one for me! I'd have been laughed out the door!

I did learn a few things. Mainly, not to do it again, although I may forget that in time because it shifts the 28-48 gap really well. If I were to do it again, I'd make it from smaller 10mm square tube and maybe go thinner on the cage. This would make it lighter and easier to build. I would just have to find telescoping square tubing, which I have been unable to so far.

Edit: oh god, looking at my Herse tandem thread, some people may actually need such a derailleur for a real Herse. Never thought of that... !

scarlson 

AND now the taillight. Last piece of the puzzle!

I was going to make a cool taillight, like the ones Jan Heine sells. I can't afford anything from Compass except tires sometimes. So I had turned a housing and bought a beautiful jeweled glass lens, no doubt for some power-on indicator on a piece of midcentury equipment. Fits the guts from a Spanninga Pixeo. Looks like an old JOS, right?

Now kicked out of the machine shop, I can't turn the threaded cap to retain the lens. And you know, I just did it some random diameter, because who cares? I'm making the threaded cap anyway so why stick with rules about the specifics? So it's not like I can pay anyone to make such a cap. This is just not going to be finished anytime soon.

Anyway, I'd just look pompous with that thing sprouting from the seat tube. Onwards.

So plan B is again to go back to my roots. No machining, use what I have. And what do I have? A Busch and Muller Toplight Line Small.
René Herse used off the shelf components, so why can't I?
Two bottle mounts on the seat tube, a couple spacers, and a hollow screw to pass the wire, and my work is done. I'm not fussy.

Brazing on my porch, I think some busybody neighbor called the fire department on me, but the torch was out by the time they drove by. Guy driving the fire engine did a good long stare at me wrenching, though. I'll have to be more discreet in the future.

Here it is installed. The seatpost inserts to just the right depth (after a little bit of filing, that is!!)



The wiring is a bit bulky, because I put in an extra disconnect in case I want to take everything apart and paint the frame one day. Let's see how it rides?

Good news: Derailleur shifts well under load, doesn't drop the chain, and even does the thing Jan Heine promised, where the chain can push it around a little so it trims itself when rubbing. Bike handles pretty well around corners.

Bad news: I can't ride it no-hands without leaning a foot to the left. Oh no. Look at that tire wear. Something is out of alignment.


The fork was bent way to the right. I adjusted the fork a bit and brazed some bronze in a dropout with my oxy-propane setup to get the wheel to sit even. To be fair, the previous owner told me the fork was messed up, so I'm prepared to believe this wasn't even my rake adjustment that caused it. That's fine.

Now, on roads, it rides great, no-handed and everything! A LITTLE twitchy at low speeds, which is to be expected. Works way better with a handlebar bag. I think it "planes". Certainly it doesn't feel like a dog, the way some welded aluminum and oversized steel frames have for me.

I took it on some flowy singletrack and it works better than my Ron Cooper. I should start calling that front derailleur lever the "instant mountain bike" lever. You pull it and suddenly you're grinding in low-range over rocks and roots. Really impressed me.


I've got 50 miles on it, maybe 5 off road. The one thing I think I don't like is the Suntour LePree three-pulley. It's mated with a Simplex retrofriction bar-end, which pulls it through the 11-34 9-speed cassette just fine. I have no doubt it works well with big jumps on a freewheel and up to 40t cogs, but for this modern cassette it requires a lot of fiddling with the shifter and hard listening to "trim". Else it ghost shifts at inopportune times, either up or down depending which side you need to "trim" toward (it's not the lever slipping). I think I'm going to change that out for an XTR M952, which is all I have on all my other bikes that don't have Le Cyclo mechs. But I'll give it a chance for the time being, as long as no good deals for those pop up on Ebay.

Also the bike weighs a little too much. Probably 29 - 29.5 lbs. I may build some lighter wheels, and pretty much any saddle would be lighter. I can probably lose 2-3lbs that way, which might make it feel a bit more lively. Other than that, unfortunately there's not much weight to cut.

We'll have to see about the handlebars. I'm trying narrower bars and non-aero levers because I liked them on my Vitus 979. Of course 50 miles is not enough to tell. I want to take this bike to PBP if they ever have it again. Hopefully we have a vaccine by 2023.

abshipp 

Really great work on that FD How do you like the 48/28? I'm running a 46/30 with a 10 speed 12-28 cassette and every once in a while I want something a bit lower. I'm a bit hamstrung by using a short cage DA derailleur so I cant go with too wide of a chainring gap, but it could probably handle an additional 2-4 tooth gap in the chainrings if I don't ever cross chain little-little.

Humblebrag, much?

I'm in the same boat with my 716, but I think mine is a couple of pounds heavier if my analog fish scale is to be believed. The current wheelset has got to be pretty portly since it's built with 36° Velocity Synergy and Atlas rims but I've got a set of A23 rims waiting in the wings to hopefully build something lighter. Those are 36° as well, so not a whole lot of weight to be lost there.

The rest of the extra weight is mostly from the saddle and handlebar bag, and I'm looking in to some synthetic saddles for weatherproofness, lighter weight, and hopefully something a big stickier than a smooth leather saddle. I think that I want a little bit of grip so that I don't slide around so much. Looking at the Fabric line of saddles currently, I could save almost a whole pound just by switching that out!

I'm also always going back and forth on what front bag to use, I've got an Acorn Tall Rando that I love the aesthetic and size of, but my Swift Ozette is a bit lighter and has better organization options with it's internal pockets and elastic banding. The flip side is that the Ozette closure mechanism is much fussier to use, especially with gloves, and definitely when riding!

scarlson 

I've been happy with the big jump. Like I said, it's an instant MTB when I pull the lever, which is pretty neat. Lately my preferred triples are 24-36-48, biopace. So far, I'm not missing the middle ring, but that may change if I put a front lowrider on it and take it touring. I ride with a more variable cadence than a lot of folks, because of my joint hypermobility issues that plague my back and knees, so that might have something to do with it.

Nice looking bike! I'm also using a fish scale. I do hope it's reading high, but it agrees with my other fish scale...
A23s are just about the lightest you can get, only 5-15g more than the lightest Pacenti rims if stated weights are taken at face value.
I have done a quick analysis of weights in the wheels and I was not surprised to learn that the spoke count is the smallest factor at play, at least for me. Here's the breakdown.

• Rims: You'll save 220g total (110g per wheel) going to 2x A23 from Synergy + Atlas. I'll save 320g going to 2x A23 from 2x Ambrosio Keba.
• Rear hub: Depends but most stock Shimano mtb rear hubs are in the 350-400g range, and I can get something vintage and CNC that weighs only 225g. I'll save about 150g. You'll save less weight if you're using road spacing, because it's hard to find a road rear hub under 200g, and even 105 isn't too much heavier than that.
• Front hub: SP SV-9 dynamo is 313g, and anything Shimano is going to be 550-700g. Currently on there is an S500, which apparently is 678g for a total savings of 365g on the dynamo alone (!) You don't have a dynamo on your 716, it looks like. But I bet you could still cut the weight down by 50g or more by trolling ebay for an old American Classic or Hi-E or some such sub-100g front hub.
• As for spoke count, it's not so much to speak of. You go from 36 spokes to 28 spokes and going by Sapim's stated weight for the Force triple-butted spoke of 6g per, you're only looking at 48g per wheel. Change from Sapim Force to Sapim D-Light and you're also looking at a savings of 1g per spoke, or 36g per wheel. You could do this. If you've been using straight-gauge spokes, the weight savings will be even more.

Yeah I agree on both fronts. This Brooks is the same model as the one I toured on for collectively 400 days. I've had that since I was 14. I don't slide around so much anymore! But the new one, man, I'm all over it. I like the older Terry saddles, which are less triangular-shaped. The leather dye does stain regular pants in the wet, though. I wish they had produced a decent synthetic-covered ti-railed one in the early '00s!

OH you weighed your bike with the bag? That probably accounts for yours being heavier than mine!
I'm fond of my Berthoud GB28 bag, but I may add a shoulder strap. Got to get out a leather punch or sewing awl to do that, and I'm not looking forward to it!

abshipp 

I do think about making this a triple, but in my (albeit limited) experience with triples I usually just use the middle and granny ring, any situation that warrants changing in to the biggest ring I'm usually just freewheeling I do understand why tourists like their triples though, the big jump from 46 to 30 can disrupt your cadence quite a bit. If I rode more gravel I would definitely consider changing out at least the small ring to a 28 or 26.

Thanks for that! As the summer months arrive and the daylight length gets longer my desire to have a dynamo gets less and less persistent. I will likely end up building the A23s with either a set of Tiagra or 105 road hubs.

Since, like you said, spoke weight is really not a huge percentage I'll likely go with what I know and use DT Competition 2.0-1.8-2.0, it helps that I think that I have those spokes in stock at my house I did a little bit of calculating and using published weights I should end up with an ~1850g wheelset using RS400 hubs and DT Comp spokes. Not too bad and they should be rock solid. Probably only a couple hundred grams less than what I've got now, but grams are grams! And you know what they say about rotating weight vs static...

I think I've got less than 2000 miles on the VO saddle that's on their now, so by all means its fairly broken in and quite comfortable. I just keep sliding forwards on it, and if I stick the nose up high enough that I don't slide then the drops aren't quite as comfy as they should be. Plus, I know it's a boat anchor so it's an easy target It's comfy, but not comfy enough to keep it off of the chopping block.

Well yeah! As a card-carrying BQ weenie that's what you're supposed to do, right?

natterberry 

‘82 614 conversion came in at 32.5 according to my bathroom scale. That’s with pedals/bottle cage/full bag/full light setup, and my wheel set isn’t light.

cudak888 

Curiously, if the inner and outer plates were laser cut in advance, would it make the overall build any easier?

I'm guessing the plates, though time consuming, aren't anywhere near as big a pain as opening and lengthening the shifter shaft.

-Kurt

scarlson 

I so wish we had more gravel options here in the Boston area. I need to bring it up to Vermont to actually put it through some paces now, on steeper terrain.

Yeah I know! If older Terry Ti saddles didn't cost so darn much right now due to the mini-bike-boom, I'd have already bought another. I have a butchered Brooks from a French bike that I might try. It "only" weighs 450g but it's likely too triangular-shaped. And if I really want to save weight, I have a Cool Gear, but I kinda think I'll break it.
Hah what gave it away? The obnoxious brake cables out the tops of the levers, the obnoxious front derailleur, or the obnoxious tone of my posts?
It's true, for years I wanted to be like Jan. But I'm in the process of getting it out of my system. I think he should open up the René Herse archives, so we can all have access to the richness of this history and whatever designs and photographs exist. And stop reviewing e-bikes and disc brakes. I guess I liked it better when BQ was for underdogs, not top dogs. Maybe time to go back to Rivendell? (I bought my Brooks saddle from them with birthday + Christmas money when I was 14)
For what it's worth, I ordered my bag direct from Berthoud as part of a group to split shipping costs, for some large amount less than the strap-equipped one from Compass, but I do end up wanting the strap from time to time. My dad had a strap on his Ortlieb handlebar bag, when he took us on tour as children, so that might be where this is coming from. I have a strap from an old Cannondale bag I could easily press into service, so really all I need are the D-rings attached.

scarlson 

Full bag, as in the bag is full? Or fully there? I'm weighing mine with pedals - Suntour Superbe Pros with alloy toe clips are about the lightest I have!

Edit: geez, the stiffener weighs 245g?! Maybe I won't ride with a full bag! That's nearly the weight difference between my boat anchor rims and some expensive Pacentis! Or that Brooks... (glances at bike while sharpening drill bit collection)
Edit 2: My stiffener weighs 225g. Not great, not terrible. Still the difference between a Brooks and something lighter. I'll give it a try without the stiffener maybe.

scarlson 

You guess right! The push rod was probably the hardest part. I did it with the mill, because it was solid stainless steel. It was difficult even to fixture up, with tons of V-blocks and things. Truth be told, I broke some tooling doing it. Finished it with a lot of hand filing. Huge pain! But Herse used hollow tubing for this. The problem with me doing that is, I can't find any in conveniently telescoping sizes. The original Herse tubing brazed to the frame was 10x10mm outside and 7x7mm inside (1.5mm wall). The tubing for the push rod was 7x7 outside with a 1mm wall. He just used a file to break through a corner and left it at that. Easy peasy, if you can find the right tubing. Closest I've come is 10x10x1mm wall and an 8mm solid square bar. But that's still going to be a pain to open up and slot.

I was thinking about getting the cage laser or waterjet cut. Originally that was my plan, before this damn plague. I still plan to at least draw up the plates in Fusion 360 and submit them to Xometry to see how much it will cost to get them cut. I welcome suggestions of where else to go for laser or waterjet work, though! Anything would be helpful.

cudak888 

This may sound like a stupid suggestion, but have you tried using Imperial-sized rectangular tubing from McMaster Carr? They have some 3/8" square tubing in 0.035" thickness. Shouldn't be that hard to shave a bit of material off 5/16" square tubing (.3125" reduced to just under the 3/8" tubes' .305" width and height) to get a good, functional fit. Not sure if 0.035" would be thick enough though.

-Kurt

scarlson 

It would probably be fine. If I ever get the urge, maybe I'll start there.
For now, it appears that one or two people might want exact Herse reproductions, which will be a bit harder to do because of this tubing situation. It may require messing around with Aliexpress or some such. Stainless would be a bonus, since it's pretty hard to get things chromed these days.

natterberry 

Waxwing bag full of its usual items - spare tube, “pencil” bag (that I stick keys and wallet in when out), tool “roll” (with Park MT-1, tire levers, patch kit, Velcro, and happened to have an 8 piece Allen set in), old toe strap, and eye glass cleaners.

My bag has an internal ABS stiffener, and the Dockit decaileur has an internal metal plate.

Pedal wise I’m using Shimano PD-M540

Edit: I also swapped my B17 Special for a Cambium 17. 125g advertised difference.

abshipp 

We don't have much until you get out West, but then it not only turns into gravel but it also gets really steep, too

Well, I was referring to myself as the BQ weenie, but if you feel like you identify as one as well I've got no problem with that

I'm still enjoying the super low trail flexy frame life, but I do keep thinking about maybe having the stock 716 fork re-raked up to 55mm from 45mm to see how it behaves. Currently it's got a VO Polyvalent fork with a whopping 63mm of offset which feels like a bit much sometimes. I know I didn't like the handling with the stock fork and a bag, but maybe a little tweak to the stock one would be a nice balance.

I recently took out the stiffener in my Acorn bag and replaced it with one fashioned very similarly to the tutorial on the Norther Cycles site. I made mine out of 1/8 x 1" aluminum instead of what looks like 1/16 on the Norther blog since that's what Home Depot had, but my initial impressions are really good. The top doesn't cave in at all anymore and it just does not move on the bike. Dead silent, too.

One of the metal suppliers I use for work lists a 1/8" x 1" bar at 68g/12" and I used probably 24" for the stiffener, so that should be around 150g if I'm being conservative. I can't imagine the four bolts, washers, and nuts to have added all that much weight so that may be an option to cut some weight as well. I'll try to remember to weigh the stock Acorn stiffener when I get home today, and maybe the new stiffener, too if I feel like taking it all apart again

ReidH

Hi,
With regards to derailleur slide tubing, you should be able to source 10mm square tubing in 1.5mm wall. I saw sources in Google. 7mm square tubing is probably the more difficult. Stainless or brass square stock is not a problem.

Reid

[QUOTE=scarlson;21515702]You guess right! The push rod was probably the hardest part. I did it with the mill, because it was solid stainless steel. It was difficult even to fixture up, with tons of V-blocks and things. Truth be told, I broke some tooling doing it. Finished it with a lot of hand filing. Huge pain! But Herse used hollow tubing for this. The problem with me doing that is, I can't find any in conveniently telescoping sizes. The original Herse tubing brazed to the frame was 10x10mm outside and 7x7mm inside (1.5mm wall). The tubing for the push rod was 7x7 outside with a 1mm wall. He just used a file to break through a corner and left it at that. Easy peasy, if you can find the right tubing. Closest I've come is 10x10x1mm wall and an 8mm solid square bar. But that's still going to be a pain to open up and slot.]

scarlson 

I just ran across several posts in the recent Trek thread about the Ishiwata CCL fork crown causing failures. This bike is definitely an '82 according to the catalog, and that fork crown is definitely an Ishiwata CCL. It _did_ look janky and cheap compared to the rest of the bike.

This thread has a lot of hearsay and two first-hand accounts of failure.
And this post shows an actual failure. I only believe these sorts of rumors if I see them, and boy, now I've seen them!

Seems they fail as gracefully as a fork ever can. Still disconcerting. Given how much I've massaged the fork blades around, I think it would have revealed a crack if there were one existing as of now. I've ridden it hard, quite a bit, on gravel this summer. I rinko it regularly so I am always inspecting it in that area. Think that's enough? Maybe I build a fork next. What do people think? gugie?