revchuck 

I've got about 6k miles on a set of Boyd 44mm clinchers, and they're pretty good. If I wasn't so negative about tubulars, I'd snap up those Reynolds that @canuckbelle found (if she didn't want them).

ancker

There's a ton of what appears to be great deals on tubulars. But I have zero desire to ever own them.
I don't race enough to justify a 'race only' wheelset. So anything I buy would need to be useful for everyday training/riding.

I'm still in the market for decent 20-40mm carbon wheels. (That I'll add a powertap hub to...)

Doge

Little Peeve / question - looking for data.
While looking at wheels for @canuckbelle I was reminded how difficult it is to find lab data (wind tunnel in this case) that matches real world. About all the data I find is 50kph/30mph wind. They like to test yaw. But who tries different speeds - same wheels?

Peeve: Not everyone rides at 30mph all race. The one I found below showed a 6mph difference (35Kph->45kph) was near double the drag. At 35kph the drag difference was about 5W between lowest and highest tested drag wheels. But there really were no climbing wheels there. 5W - can be the difference between chains, or pedals.
So in my advice giving I started thinking how we are all told to buy what works best at 30mph. There is nothing really on handling or weight. Make that 24mph and the aero aspect of the wheels is half what it was. And that is 24mph into the wind. In a pack - 24mph, I'd guess (cause that is all the data I know that is available) the aero difference in wheels is considerably under 5W. I can see that the 2 sec in the wind in a sprint @35-40mph - there is a difference. Maybe 20W (guessing until I see data on that). But where is the variable wind speed wind tunnel data?

WindSpeed.JPG

UmneyDurak

I am looking for training wheels.
Requirements
1) width 25mm
2) under $600
3) Carbon braking surface (Highly preferred, but with price restriction might not be possible)

Any suggestions?

hack

I think with those metrics you either need a used set from a teammate, team sponsor hookup, or sourcing some open mold stuff from overseas.

revchuck 

FWIW, the speeds in @Doge's graph are 21 and 27 mph, but his basic point still holds true. Vertical axis is aerodynamic drag (but you probably figured that out).

Doge

That was an unusual one. Most are 50kph.

revchuck 

It's more representative of amateur racers' speeds training solo and on a fast group ride, IMO.

UmneyDurak

Well #3 is optional.

Doge

Group ride is totally different than a fan. And women's racing is not like slower men's racing. They ride totally differently and will often maintain pack speeds going 18mph - in a pack.
Our women's racer here seems quite a bit more aggressive and I expect that is why she's doing PRT races in such a short period. So in recommending any wheel, how it is used is real important. I've seem most the graphs and lab results. When it came to selecting for my kid we had all options. We went outside and tested. The result was a 50mm profile 25mm width - over an 80mm profile and some other "faster" brands.
Reason it was selected is he went faster on them.
I thought there was a cost in holding it stable and higher weight in real world change in momentum that comes from side-to-side movement. anyway - what we chose was way down the list in tests - it was just faster.

hack

Hmmm ....


These are alloy, 24mm wide, but under $600:


RaceRim- Performace Carbon Clinchers Bicycle Wheels


You could also get some rims and build up with your hubs of your choosing:


HED Belgium Series C2 Plus 700c Rim

topflightpro

These are a bit over your budget, but almost fit all your needs:

https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheel...-wheelset.html

If you want to go with cheaper hubs, you can get these: https://www.wheelsfar.com/road-wheel...-wheelset.html

The rims are "UCI Approved," whatever that means. But FarSports has developed a decent reputation on Weight Weenies.

topflightpro

Or go Flo, like Aaron: https://www.flocycling.com/store/ind...product_id=236

EDIT: Nevermind, I wasn't paying attention. I thought the price was for a wheelset, not individual wheels.

canuckbelle

One additional thing: I wonder what happens when we remember that we're mostly riding in a pack. So the aero advantage of 55mm wheels may not be worth the extra weight it takes to spin up out of corners in crits. So...just building on what you're musing.

canuckbelle

18mph is a *bit* of an exaggeration (unless we're talking Cat 3/4, maybe).

Weak P123 or Open women's races often roll around pretty steady at an average of 22-23mph, for the most part. At least, that's my experience. That said, I *have* done a race (I think @topflightpro saw it happen) where we rolled around at 18mph for the final 4 laps because they stuck me on the front and there was NO way I was riding >150w in that situation. (I then won in a sprint, duh.)

Doge

You made me look. It was *a bit* off. For 2016 SoCal District Championship May 29 WP123 - Megan Jastrab The Official Website - USA Cycling, age 13, racing age 14, won it (after winning the 3/4). Average was 23.5 for 33 min and they did dip below 20 mph (must have been when I was videoing) https://www.strava.com/activities/311211265/analysis. That crit Daniel's group averaged 30mph for 90 min. Max women's sprint speed was under 33mph. It was all about acceleration. So the wheel selection would matter.

You certainly know women's racing better than me, but I've seen enough to know the speed they may go, has little to do with the speed they could go.

For those kinda races a fast accelerating wheel is a very good choice. Clearly the wheel selection for a 24mph ave vs a 30mph ave would be different.

So...
Yes - certainly buy the lighter faster accelerating wheel if your crits are similar to the one above - even if giving up wind tunnel numbers in direct wind at 30mph.
BTW - the go-big-or-go-home Vittoria tires are the Cronos CS 24mm. They are about 180g and flat easily. But super fast. Kid won the 17-18 VOS TT on them (Brandon did the P1) and we changed for RR and crit.

canuckbelle

Regional races (I include state champs there) are certainly very different from pro/PRT, as I'm sure you know. In regional races, you're right: it's 100% about acceleration. Typically, it's going from 23 to 34 (34ish is my normal top speed in slow wind-ups) for the sprint.

So what does that say for wheel selection?

UmneyDurak

Thanks

Marketing.
So are those the generic Chinese carbon rims everyone keeps talking about?

They do have Flo 30 in my price range. Aluminium, but beggars can't be choosers.

canuckbelle

...and for what it's worth, one big reason why women's races are slower (like, way slower) than men's is we usually don't have teams with teammates to sacrifice their race to keep the pace up. That makes the women's races, in some ways, more tactical. So sometimes we're just rolling around at 22mph because the people who can't sprint can't shake the sprinters...and the sprinters don't feel like forcing a breakaway.

Doge

It means pretty much what I posted before. A max speed of 34 is not going to have the same aero demands of a higher speed and the lighter wheels accelerate better.
So you should have purchased those wheels by now.

canuckbelle

shovelhd

Why? I'm in my third year on $550 overseas wheels with zero issues. Just pick good components and plan on truing after the first 500 miles.

As for strong, light and fast, it's possible to get fast wheels under 1300 grams. I had a set of Zipp 404 10 speed wheels, 58mm and 1270g. However they were not wide. Adding width adds weight. So if you want light, snappy, and almost as fast, go narrow.

topflightpro

CB maybe look for some older Reynolds DV46 tubulars. Even if they are 10-speed, the DVs used DT240 hubs, which are easily upgradable to 11-speed. It's as simple as pulling off the old freehub and sticking on the new one. No re-truing is needed. I've had a set for many years. I like them quite a bit. You should be able to get them for $500-$600 because they aren't wide.

revchuck 

I've got a set of Reynolds 66mm tubulars that are ten speed (don't know if they're the DV series). How can you tell if the hubs are DT240s? I believe (they're not in front of me) that they're just marked "Reynolds".

canuckbelle

My race wheels are already Reynolds 46s ...and they've been great: totally bombproof. But I'm looking for something a bit lighter.