Is there an advantage to hookless rims?
06-09-22, 12:35 PM
#26
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You just touched on why they "work" over there= 15 psi. The issue isn't about burping on road it's quite literally about tires being blown off the rim. Its the other end of the spectrum.
The most troubling thing for me is that the parts of the industry that will talk about it openly just use in house rules of 150% of target pressure. That's a 1.5 safety factor. That's the LOWEST safety factor I have ever run into in my engineering life. Especially in a consumer product. The worst part is that not everyone even agrees on going that "high". Hushed anecdotes say some OE's have been fine with 1.2-1.3. Think about that: If they are rating a particular tire and rim combo to 70 psi then that means they have experienced blow off at 84 psi. Keep in mind that even all these years after we went to "wider" 23mm rims (13 years ago) we are still having an impossible time convincing people not to ride pressures in the 115 psi range for road. Old habits die hard. This is an absolute recipe for more than a handful of deaths. Also...84psi? how accurate is your crappy pump that you've used for 15 years? I've run across new *redacted* pump gauges that are as much as 15-20 psi off at lower pressures.
The most troubling thing for me is that the parts of the industry that will talk about it openly just use in house rules of 150% of target pressure. That's a 1.5 safety factor. That's the LOWEST safety factor I have ever run into in my engineering life. Especially in a consumer product. The worst part is that not everyone even agrees on going that "high". Hushed anecdotes say some OE's have been fine with 1.2-1.3. Think about that: If they are rating a particular tire and rim combo to 70 psi then that means they have experienced blow off at 84 psi. Keep in mind that even all these years after we went to "wider" 23mm rims (13 years ago) we are still having an impossible time convincing people not to ride pressures in the 115 psi range for road. Old habits die hard. This is an absolute recipe for more than a handful of deaths. Also...84psi? how accurate is your crappy pump that you've used for 15 years? I've run across new *redacted* pump gauges that are as much as 15-20 psi off at lower pressures.
06-09-22, 12:49 PM
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I think I have a set of those in the parts bin. Didn't know they were recalled, but remember being surprised that someone thought it was a good idea to make a crucial part that took repeated rubbing from the end of a spring out of brittle plastic. Might have chucked them when I could no longer get them adjusted right.
06-09-22, 12:55 PM
#28
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I think I have a set of those in the parts bin. Didn't know they were recalled, but remember being surprised that someone thought it was a good idea to make a crucial part that took repeated rubbing from the end of a spring out of brittle plastic. Might have chucked them when I could no longer get them adjusted right.
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06-09-22, 01:01 PM
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Poorer braking than silver anodized rims, too. Campy brakes, a.k.a. "speed modulators," were already enough of a while-knuckle experience in panic stops without the added reduction in braking power from hard anodizing.
06-09-22, 01:23 PM
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06-09-22, 01:42 PM
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Actually thought of you a couple nights back because I was racing on Zwift and saw someone with a [PSImet] team tag in my race and was thinking that I didn't remember having raced against one of your riders before. Also had been remembering what you thought about the integrity of Zwift racing.
06-09-22, 02:03 PM
#32
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Well ...
Removing the hook = removing one layer of protection from the tyre blowing off of the rim. And ZERO benefits. Why bother?
Removing the hook = removing one layer of protection from the tyre blowing off of the rim. And ZERO benefits. Why bother?
06-09-22, 02:13 PM
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06-09-22, 02:16 PM
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Only benefit that I could find is increased internal width for a given external fixed width making for an allegedly plusher ride.
The lack of sufficient safety margin for blowoffs is why I recently bought hooked rims.
The lack of sufficient safety margin for blowoffs is why I recently bought hooked rims.
06-09-22, 02:19 PM
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Someone once told me it was that it made it slightly easier to get tires on the rims.
06-09-22, 02:20 PM
#36
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Compromising safety just so ppl can have cheap(er) carbon rims, is not a benefit. Its a liability. By that logic customers might as well buy no name carbon wheels from freabay. Me. Id much rather have a semi no name china wheel than a hook less road wheel from any manufacturer.
06-09-22, 02:50 PM
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06-09-22, 03:12 PM
#40
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Wow! I started this to learn of the advantages of those rims. So, maybe a touch stronger, a touch lighter. And definitely cheaper to make. Less waste. Fatter stockholder portfolios. I'm supposed to risk my skin and bones for those advantages?
06-09-22, 03:17 PM
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06-09-22, 03:18 PM
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Apparently...yes.
This is truly really like the whole bottom bracket fiasco. A misguided endeavor based in manufacturing savings and trying to solve for bad quality by just eliminating a feature.
This is truly really like the whole bottom bracket fiasco. A misguided endeavor based in manufacturing savings and trying to solve for bad quality by just eliminating a feature.
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06-09-22, 03:30 PM
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No. There is no benefit for the rider. All real benefits are on the manufacturing side. They are less expensive to mold and there is less scrap. The tradeoffs on the rider side of absolutely little to no control of the tires and their ability to reliably stay on the rims in road applications is borderline criminally negligent in my opinion. My opinion is meaningless though.
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06-09-22, 03:45 PM
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Guys,
I recently did a 71 mile gravel race over some pretty rough roads on hookless rims. I didn't die.
I'll just point out that motorcyle wheels, ATV wheels and automobile wheels are all hookless.
I recently did a 71 mile gravel race over some pretty rough roads on hookless rims. I didn't die.
I'll just point out that motorcyle wheels, ATV wheels and automobile wheels are all hookless.
06-09-22, 03:49 PM
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Since my previous post, I've had one more blowoff and one more death. This brings me up to eight and three, respectively. I figure I'll go back to hooked rims after I die seven times - that'll give me one more plus a bailout.
06-09-22, 05:15 PM
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I've had a tubeless bicycle tire blow off at below the rated pressure.
06-09-22, 05:23 PM
#49
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I've been using the new zipp 303s hookless rims for over 1000 miles with no problems. The 23mm internal width allows a lower tire pressure than my 19mm hooked rims. My Pirelli p zero tires were easy to get onto the rim and seated with a very old Silca pump. No problems so far. I've had mine up to 57mph.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 06-09-22 at 08:28 PM.
06-09-22, 05:31 PM
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Compromising safety just so ppl can have cheap(er) carbon rims, is not a benefit. Its a liability. By that logic customers might as well buy no name carbon wheels from freabay. Me. Id much rather have a semi no name china wheel than a hook less road wheel from any manufacturer.
Okay.
