flangehead

From the tweet that prompted the article:

“It detected the pedestrian, but rather than slamming on the brakes it just proceeded through like a human would knowing there was enough time to do so.”

We have a system that prioritizes motorists over other uses of the commons. And that creates nagging little inconsistencies, like forcing pedestrians to walk indirectly to find painted lines where “by law” they have preferences (but not by Mr. Newton’s laws, which are strictly and uniformly enforced in all jurisdictions).

This is a good illustration of why we are where we are, with over 30000 road deaths per year in the US.

A “human” would take reasonable precautions to not hurt another human. However our culture, laws and built environment means that a “human motorist” prioritizes speed and convenience, not safe operation.

Yes the AI behaved more like a human motorist. Deep down, that says a lot about us.

PeteHski

As a Tesla owner since 2018 I can safely say that FSD is not up to the task of driving safely without close human supervision.

I actually prefer the simplified Autopilot which works very effectively in reducing driver workload and offering a second pair of eyes on the road. If all cars had this system it would pretty much eliminate all those silly rear end collisions in stop-start traffic, along with vehicles drifting across lanes when not paying attention. As a bonus it will reliably recognise and brake behind a cyclist.

It’s not perfect in all scenarios but it’s better than many human drivers, especially those who are distracted or driving aggressively. The sooner this tech becomes mainstream the better.

tyrion

In San Francisco cars must stop for pedestrians, but not in Los Angeles.

I-Like-To-Bike

You are assuming that the "reduced driver workload" does not involve reduced attention being paid to the road or the operation of the vehicle by the driver of the vehicle responsible for continuous oversight/close human supervision of the Autopilot system for it to operate safely.

Please explain how the driver of a Tesla gets his "workload reduced" by using Autopilot if he/she still is responsible for close supervision of the vehicle's operation and keeping eyes on the road and hand(s) on the steering wheel at all times?

Polaris OBark

It is a state law.

PeteHski

Having used this system now for over 5 years I can say it most definitely reduces overall driver workload. It basically drives itself in many common scenarios with little or no manual intervention. The attention you pay as a driver is entirely up to the individual. You do have to keep your hands on the wheel for the system to remain active, but you are not actively steering, braking or accelerating. Lane positioning is more consistent than the average human driver I observe on the road. Some cars are always driving in the gutter, some drift wide out of their lane for no reason. These are traits I observe daily and I'm sure you do too. AP simply does not have these bad habits. It's as good as a competent human driver in this respect.

There was a guy in a truck who was messing about with his phone and ploughed into a line of stationary traffic at 60 mph. AP would have prevented that from happening. Humans are not a great benchmark for road safety. FSD/AP pays more attention than many human drivers, but lacks human intelligence, which is why it works better under human supervision. People argue that drivers may become inattentive with FSD/AP, but that has not been my experience. I tend to think driver attention is more of a personal trait than what type of vehicle they are driving.

Bottom line, as a cyclist I would rather face an inattentive driver with FSD than an inattentive driver without any driver aids.

flangehead

Sounds a lot like commercial aircraft autopilots. In that situation you have a professional, extensively trained and probably well-motivated human overseeing the automation.

In our population of “above-average” motorists, not so much.

Is AI becoming “more human” very similar to setting speed limits at the 85-th percentile?

I think so. Our culture values speed and convenience over life and limb and we will imprint that into our robots …

I-Like-To-Bike

Except when it isn't and must be corrected by an attentive human in the driver's seat
tesla FSD/AP is NOT designed to work safely without human supervision, nor does it, read your owner manual without the wink-wink-nod-nod attitude of the Tesla salesman; human supervision is not optional in the current system no matter how intelligent the owner of the vehicle thinks it may be.
Good for you, my car a 2022 Corolla also has an autobraking feature (PCS Pre-Collision System) built-in but it has never been activated, but then I never considered it much of a "workload" to control the car with the brakes, steering or accelerator. Paying attention to the traffic environment and my place in it is the "workload I am concerned about when driving. Tesla from the Chief Twit to many of his fan boys seem to believe that paying attention is an option with FSD/AP, as long as a warning message to pay attention is in the owner's manual.

Bald Paul

Unfortunately so.

himespau 

Except for all the times it hasn't when Teslas have crashed into things/people.

PeteHski

I can see your true colours. I’m not an FSD fanboy and certainly don’t consider it capable of self-driving. As I said earlier, I actually prefer the simplified AP for various reasons I’m not going to waste my time explaining to an obvious Tesla hater.

Emergency auto-braking is a feature on many new cars, including Tesla but it’s not part of the FSD program. It’s a secondary system of last resort. Not something you would want to rely on in everyday driving.

PeteHski

They make good click bait. A fool can still crash into things and FSD is far from infallible when used by fools. But it also has the potential to prevent many common accidents when used appropriately.

livedarklions

I just want to speak up to point out that while I am a confirmed Musk-hater, I don't think that gives me license to talk to you in the snarky derogatory manner that I-Like-To-Bike is when you offer your honest opinion of what it is like to drive with these systems functioning.

I-Like-To-Bike

Tesla hater, eh? Yes, it must be obvious to you that anyone not impressed with Musk/Tesla's words AND actions (testing unsafe and inadequate driving software on public roads by untrained fan boys and worse) in contempt of the public's safety is a "hater."

Do you mean I'm not a "Tesla Shorts," another tried and true nonsensical slur favored by the Tesla/Musk crowd to explain away critics of half baked "self-driving" schemes and any skepticism of the deceptive promotions and unfulfilled promises made about the safety record of "self-driving" Teslas and its likely future use by owners as a money making robo-taxi. Too funny!

PeteHski

If it quacks then it’s probably a duck.

If you could accept that not all Tesla owners are “Musk fanboys” then you might be surprised that I agree with you about the far-fetched claims of fully autonomous driving and robo-taxis. But the system itself is actually pretty useful when used appropriately. My current Tesla just has AP as I don’t find the additional features of FSD worth the price - especially not in the restricted UK version.

What’s your personal experience of using FSD or AP?

livedarklions

Honestly, his claims for FSD and AP are so minimal that I can't figure out why you think it's appropriate for you to rail on at him. Ultimately, he just claimed that an inattentive driver with FSD/AP would be marginally better than an inattentive driver without FSD/AP. Your response to this seems to be that it's the FSD/AP that's encourage drivers to become inattentive. Given how many of your posts on this forum are dedicated to yelling at people about being "hysterical" about the dangers of distracted drivers, this is especially hilarious coming from you.

Maybe just quit with the guilt-by-association and putting words in his mouth, and you might have an actually reasonable conversation.

tyrion

I was being facetious. Those 2 cities have remarkably different driving practices in regards to pedestrians.

I-Like-To-Bike

If it quacks about Tesla "haters" in response to criticism of the product or its promoter it is probably a fan boy/duck. But you do seem to quack a different tune about the far-fetched claims, so let us let that lie.

A Tesla would be about the last car I would ever buy based on its price, body configuration, privacy concerns, alleged quality control and limited service as well as on the road charging availability in this area. In addition, Musk's political antics and anti-social destructive business practices/behavior would probably prevent me from getting anywhere near a Tesla showroom and spending a dime that could end up in his pocket. Therefore I have no on personal experience driving Tesla products. Sufficient information to evaluate Tesla's ready for prime time self driving capability and software/safety deficiencies is available on-line.

I am really stumped about your comments about "reduced workload" since I can not picture how an intelligent and attentive driver has any degree of his driving workload reduced by Level 2 driver assistance as featured in any of the current product available from any of the auto manufacturers. All I can picture is the GMC Sierra pickup truck ad where a driver pushes a button and can now clap his hands or thump his chest in unison with the beat of the radio, and that is it. As long as the driver is required to pay the same attention to the road conditions/environment whether or not it has level 2 assistance, the "self-driving" feature of Level 2 vehicles provides no reduction in human driving workload.

PeteHski

TLDR quack quack

I-Like-To-Bike

I'll make it short for you. You asked me a question, I answered it.

I asked you a question, but now no more interested in a response from you.

livedarklions

There was a question there? Looks more like a declaration of incredulity to me.

PeteHski

I read enough to acknowledge that you have zero experience of using FSD, but you are very opinionated about Tesla and Musk. You sound like a stereotypical Tesla troll rather than a genuine critic, with all the usual derogatory rhetoric toward Tesla owners. Pathetic.

I-Like-To-Bike

Got it.
Poster with opinion different than yours = troll
People with opinions different than yours = stereotypical trolls
People with opinions that you agree with = genuine critics
Opinions/discussion that you disagree with = derogatory rhetoric

Bottom line:
Posters quick to pull the "troll card" in response to opinions/observation contrary to their own = stereotypical BF self appointed maven defending the faith.

PeteHski

You could have raised all your points without the obvious derogatory remarks and I would probably have agreed with some of your criticisms of FSD. I have actually been very critical of FSD and Elon Musk's over-ambitious timescales for its development. You don't get it at all.

It is so obvious that your Tesla opinions are driven by selective internet browsing rather than any personal or professional experience. I happen to have both in this case.

tungsten

Tesla valuation + guy drives Tesla off cliff = priceless.