Ekdog

My, what a rude comment! What is it that I "want to believe"--that I like public transport?

sjanzeir

Oh, my comment was rude??! You're the one who made an assumption about what my reply to your question might have meant. Your words, not mine:

No one was looking down their nose at anyone; the sole purpose of my posting of those pictures of the buses is to show that as long as a safer, cleaner, more expedient means of transport (such as, say, a privately owned vehicle,) is available, there's no need for anyone to ride in a 30-year-old bus with no air conditioning in 40-degree+ heat, especially on the way to a business meeting wearing some nice clothes. Otherwise, riding in any of those buses isn't much different from riding my bicycle in the same conditions. So, if we all refrained from making assumptions about people we didn't know and never met, the world would probably be a much better place.

Ekdog

When phototographs are posted without any explanation, assumptions will be made, so it's almost always better to accompany them with words so as to avoid misunderstanding. How were forum members to know, for example, that those pictures were taken when temperatures were over 40º or that you are a businessman who wears formal attire?

Ekdog

*photographs

What's up with the "Edit Post" function? When I click on it, I get a blank post with nothing to edit. Has anyone else had this problem?

cooker

Yes, I've been unable to edit some of my posts, yet with others I've had no problem.

sjanzeir

1. One would think that a glance to the left folloed by a simple Google/wikipedia search would have been more than adequate.
2. BS. People make assumptions only because they want to, either because they are too lazy to stop and think a little or because it just happens to be more convenient in any given situation, kind of like George Clooney's character in Up in the Air : "I'm like mym mother. I stereotype. It's faster."
3. How did "on the way to a business meeting wearing nice clothes" become exactly the same as "you are a businessman who wears formal attire??!" Dude, seriously, lay off the assumptions already! Sheesh!

Ekdog

To find out what the dates were and the weather conditions when those photos were taken? To learn about what kind of clothes you wear to work and your motivations for not riding the bus?

sjanzeir

Okay! You're hopelessly funny and this just got old. Ciao!

Ekdog

وداعا

PhotoJoe 

MOD NOTE: Let's get this conversation back on topic and drop the tangents, please.

sjanzeir

With pleasure. Sorry about that.

Machka 

Yeah ... there are some places and situations where it is just not practical to cycle.

Even where I live now, I keep thinking I'd like to cycle to and from work, but haven't quite got up the nerve to take the time to tackle the terrain and traffic.

cooker

You're coming across as extremely touchy. It was not obvious to me what you meant by the bus photos, but, like Ekdog, I got the impression that you were implying something negative about them and the heat is not evident in the pictures. And there is very little difference (and nothing offensive) between what you said about your attire and how he understood it.

sjanzeir

You're probably right. I thought that the pictures would speak a thousand words, but apparently they were the wrong words. The idea I was trying to bring across is that with these buses, combined with the heat and road conditions, it would be nearly impossible to get around and stay fresh and presentable. The decades-old problem with this country is that there never has been a proper, publicly funded, city-managed "public" transport system in the true sense of the word (i.e. as understood in the Western world.)

There were more than one attempt by Saptco and others to set up an urban system a few years back, but they just couldn't get it done right the first time; they just couldn't compete with the privately owned buses. The drivers of those buses charge passengers less than half what big-ticket corporations like Saptco would charge (why pay five riyals to get somewhere when you could pay two?)

The government has been trying for years to eliminate them, but there was no legal way to put them out of business (and they would just up and complain to the king or the region's prince every time the municipality or the traffic department fires a salvo.) The only move the government could make is to prevent them from replacing their old buses with new ones, so that's they they kept running those decades-old Toyota Coasters.

So, all of these factors, plus the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of low-wage foreign workers who depend on these buses to get around, the the fact that gas is comparatively cheap, and most everyone as their dog own cars, it's kind of hard to set up a public transport system and get enough people to use it to make it economically feasible for the city and the operators. They're building a subway system in Riyadh now, but whether or not it would be popular enough to cover its costs is anybody's guess at this point.

Ekdog

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I'm glad you've decided to stick around because I find the idea of living car-free or even car-light in a country like Saudi Arabia fascinating.

I was wondering: how often do you sees Saudis cycling there in Jeddah? I'd assume that they are few and far between and that most of them are roadies. The few transportation cyclists that brave the heat and the traffic, from what I can gather, are mostly European and American expats. Is that true? Do any of the poor migrant workers from India, the Philippines and elsewhere choose the bicycle over those hot, overcrowded buses?

wolfchild

Don't worry. The pictures that you posted did speak a 1000 words and I understood and I am sure that many others understood...I wouldn't ride one of those junky mini buses even if somebody paid my bus fare...Do these things even have working brakes ??...Are people who drive them even licensed ??...Are they safetied and E-tested and roadworthy ??

Walter S

See, it's all about what you want to see in the pictures.

sjanzeir

Oh, they're licensed alright. And any of those buses will pass the emussions test and be deemed roadworthy within an inch of the outer limits of regulations - on the day of the Traffic Department's inspection. But think about it - the youngest of these buses has been running around since the 1980s, and the number of times their drum brakes get actuated per day must run into the thousands; hell, these things get their brake shoes replaced on a monthly basis, or perhaps even more frequently than that - and I'm not talking about 100-percent genuine OEM Toyota replacement parts here, but anything the can bolt in there that's even a buck cheaper. These guys think nothing of screeching to halt in the left lane to pick up a passenger from the oppposite sidewalk foe the two-riyal fare, so "safety" (their general definition of which is not being dead) tends to not rank high on their list. Because what's an arm or a leg between friends? It's all in God's hands, anyway!

Most Saudis who cycle do it for fitness and recreation. In fact it was my Saudi brother-in-law who pestered me into getting back into the sport after all these years (he lost 45 pounds in a year.) Now he's bugging me about joining the growing and bustling Jeddah Cyclist community, but between my work and the way the plan their outings and activities, I just don't see that happening at this time. Thw Filipino guys who woek at the Trek dealership also ivited me moee than once to ride with ride along with them on Friday mornings, but I havent taken them up on it yet.

As for those who ride to get A to B, they mostly tend to be Asian workers who mostly eun either heavyweight, heavy-duty Phoenix/Phoenix-like juggernauts or knockoff mountain bikes, and even though those guys just ride to get between places within the neighborhood, the sprawling nature of Saudi cities mean that they cover some distances.

Roody

Those are great suggestions!

For years I went with a neighbor family for trips to a warehouse store about every 3 months. I helped pay for gas, and took their kids off their hands after I finished my shopping. (I usually bought the kids a treat at the lunch counter while we were waiting for the parents to finish shopping.) I got things like toilet paper, pet supplies, and other bulky items on these trips, so I rarely had to worry about carrying these things on my bike.

It wasn't strictly "carfree". but it would be pretty expensive (and stupid) to own an entire car just to go to Sam's Club every 3 months.

I guess my point is, if you want to be less car-dependent, it helps to think creatively and not to be too rigid or too purist.

Roody

Are you an ex-pat? If so,have you ever checked with local people about how they might get along without a car? I imagine there are some local people who don't drive....

sjanzeir

My wife is a local. Trust me, every male I ever met who's 16 and older drives.

Roody

I don't think he meant any disrespect. And I wondered the same thing. You just posted a few pictures that left me with more questions than answers. If you have the time, I would love to learn more about the bus system there, especially if based on your actual experience rather than looking at pictures and videos that you found on the internet..

I also wondered if local people ride bikes around the city much. You said it seemed too dangerous, but people say that about every city in the world. Do you have any experience at riding in heavy car traffic anywhere else? If so, how does Jeddah compare to other cities that you've ridden in?

Roody

Are there some males you haven't met who don't drive? They would probably give you better info on the topic than the ones who do drive. And how do women get around? I noticed both males and femsles in the pictures you posted earlier.

wolfchild

Here let me give you a simple interpretation of those pics: Public transit sucks in most third world countries, is dangerous, uncomfortable and just a huge PITA to use. Another thing to look out for is cultural trends of the countries. I don't know about Saudi Arabia but in some countries having a car is a status symbol which will get you more respect. In many countries car-free people are considered lower class citizens.

wolfchild

You mean people who slave away at minimum wage jobs and struggle to survive and pay their bills and put enough food on their table ??.