Shortening and re-threading spokes
10-08-21, 04:51 AM
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Shortening and re-threading spokes
After lacing up my 700c wheel with a 3-cross pattern, I've concluded the 296mm spokes are too long - actually my Park Tool spoke length gauge shows them to be around 294 - 295mm but they were ordered as 296. With the nipples all threaded to the point where the threads just disappear into the shaft of the nipple the spokes are still way too loose, the nipple heads aren't even seated onto the grommets and there's only another 3 mm or so before the unthreaded part of the spoke runs into the nipple threads - I feel like there needs to be some thread headroom to allow for truing and dishing. I imagine they could stand to be 2 - 3 mm shorter.
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Last edited by MyRedTrek; 10-08-21 at 05:38 AM.
10-08-21, 06:20 AM
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After lacing up my 700c wheel with a 3-cross pattern, I've concluded the 296mm spokes are too long - actually my Park Tool spoke length gauge shows them to be around 294 - 295mm but they were ordered as 296. With the nipples all threaded to the point where the threads just disappear into the shaft of the nipple the spokes are still way too loose, the nipple heads aren't even seated onto the grommets and there's only another 3 mm or so before the unthreaded part of the spoke runs into the nipple threads - I feel like there needs to be some thread headroom to allow for truing and dishing. I imagine they could stand to be 2 - 3 mm shorter.
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Take one of your nipples and thread it onto a spoke that has not been inserted into the rim and see how far you can thread it on with your fingers. You can safely go well beyond that point with a spoke wrench.
As to the question about shortening spokes, I do it all the time, but I have shop grade equipment to do it with. My Morizumi spoke cutter will easily cut and rethread a spoke by as little as 2 mm.Other machines might not handle the job as well.
This article explains why spokes a little too long are not a problem and may actually be beneficial. https://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/nipple-threads/
Last edited by Dan Burkhart; 10-08-21 at 06:23 AM.
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10-08-21, 08:25 AM
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10-08-21, 08:33 AM
#4
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The nipple threads onto a spoke a lot further than you think, and even if the spoke sticks through the nipple inside the rim, you can just dremel the spoke flat with the nipple. It has been done alot over the years. I just had to grind mine off from being 3mm longer than I needed on a single wall build.
If you can tension the wheel without bottoming the nipple, your fine. I wouldn't try to re-thread them unless I knew the nipple had bottomed out.
If you can tension the wheel without bottoming the nipple, your fine. I wouldn't try to re-thread them unless I knew the nipple had bottomed out.
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10-08-21, 09:19 AM
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I have a Hozan C-700 spoke threader. I have had done this before when I had an overabundance of spokes that are close to the right length and I’m using double walled rims. It works but you should be careful about how much more you thread the spokes. The 2.0mm portion of DT butted spokes is short. Adding 2 to 5mm of thread is okay but anymore than that starts to get to the where the spoke necks down.
That said, the spoke threader is currently going for $180. I’ve had mine for 30+ years and have used it a few times. I’m not sure I ever got that much value out of it for what it cost. Yes, DT Alpine III are expensive but not that expensive. They are even cheaper if you buy them from https://www.rosebikes.com/search?q=alpine+iii]Rose Bikes[/url]. Even with shipping they are economical.
That said, the spoke threader is currently going for $180. I’ve had mine for 30+ years and have used it a few times. I’m not sure I ever got that much value out of it for what it cost. Yes, DT Alpine III are expensive but not that expensive. They are even cheaper if you buy them from https://www.rosebikes.com/search?q=alpine+iii]Rose Bikes[/url]. Even with shipping they are economical.
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10-08-21, 09:44 AM
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Every once in a while I'll lace a wheel and it looks like the spokes may be way too long. Invariably it is the result of me not paying attention when lacing and getting one spoke in the wrong rim hole, which then affects the rest. Easy enough to fix though. I'd recommend that you take a good look at your lacing before you do anything else.
I agree with the recommendations to tension the wheel and see where you get to. Spoke ends protruding through the nipple can be managed by grinding if too high. The bigger issue is that you run out of threads before reaching proper tension, but you won't know that until you try. I, too, have invested in the Hozan threader and have found it useful for running a few more threads on a spoke. I have also cut long spokes and rolled new threads for a new wheel build, but that's a real chore to avoid if you can. I'm damned by being cheap and having too many spokes left over from prior builds.
Good luck
I agree with the recommendations to tension the wheel and see where you get to. Spoke ends protruding through the nipple can be managed by grinding if too high. The bigger issue is that you run out of threads before reaching proper tension, but you won't know that until you try. I, too, have invested in the Hozan threader and have found it useful for running a few more threads on a spoke. I have also cut long spokes and rolled new threads for a new wheel build, but that's a real chore to avoid if you can. I'm damned by being cheap and having too many spokes left over from prior builds.
Good luck
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10-08-21, 11:36 AM
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Also note that most spoke threads are rolled, not cut, so the starting material is insufficient for cutting full threads with a die. Instead a spoke threading machine is used.
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10-08-21, 11:37 AM
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Every once in a while I'll lace a wheel and it looks like the spokes may be way too long. Invariably it is the result of me not paying attention when lacing and getting one spoke in the wrong rim hole, which then affects the rest. Easy enough to fix though. I'd recommend that you take a good look at your lacing before you do anything else.
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10-08-21, 11:53 AM
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The first step to solving a problem is to determine without a doubt that you have one!
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
10-08-21, 11:56 AM
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Every once in a while I'll lace a wheel and it looks like the spokes may be way too long. Invariably it is the result of me not paying attention when lacing and getting one spoke in the wrong rim hole, which then affects the rest. Easy enough to fix though. I'd recommend that you take a good look at your lacing before you do anything else.
I agree with the recommendations to tension the wheel and see where you get to. Spoke ends protruding through the nipple can be managed by grinding if too high. The bigger issue is that you run out of threads before reaching proper tension, but you won't know that until you try. I, too, have invested in the Hozan threader and have found it useful for running a few more threads on a spoke. I have also cut long spokes and rolled new threads for a new wheel build, but that's a real chore to avoid if you can. I'm damned by being cheap and having too many spokes left over from prior builds.
Good luck
I agree with the recommendations to tension the wheel and see where you get to. Spoke ends protruding through the nipple can be managed by grinding if too high. The bigger issue is that you run out of threads before reaching proper tension, but you won't know that until you try. I, too, have invested in the Hozan threader and have found it useful for running a few more threads on a spoke. I have also cut long spokes and rolled new threads for a new wheel build, but that's a real chore to avoid if you can. I'm damned by being cheap and having too many spokes left over from prior builds.
Good luck
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10-08-21, 12:46 PM
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The first step to solving a problem is to determine without a doubt that you have one!
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
Using a digital caliper it looks like there's 3.5 - 4mm extra distance inside the nipples before the threaded portion starts, so 7-8 mm total distance figuring opposing sides of the rim. Of course I don't want to have to use all of it to give some headroom for adjusting. I took the spokes all out to measure them - I'll re-lace and see what happens. Being a complete newbie I can use the practice.
10-08-21, 01:00 PM
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Sounds like a plan.
Using a digital caliper it looks like there's 3.5 - 4mm extra distance inside the nipples before the threaded portion starts, so 7-8 mm total distance figuring opposing sides of the rim. Of course I don't want to have to use all of it to give some headroom for adjusting. I took the spokes all out to measure them - I'll re-lace and see what happens. Being a complete newbie I can use the practice.
Using a digital caliper it looks like there's 3.5 - 4mm extra distance inside the nipples before the threaded portion starts, so 7-8 mm total distance figuring opposing sides of the rim. Of course I don't want to have to use all of it to give some headroom for adjusting. I took the spokes all out to measure them - I'll re-lace and see what happens. Being a complete newbie I can use the practice.
10-08-21, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by MyRedTrek View Post
Sounds like a plan.
Using a digital caliper it looks like there's 3.5 - 4mm extra distance inside the nipples before the threaded portion starts, so 7-8 mm total distance figuring opposing sides of the rim. Of course I don't want to have to use all of it to give some headroom for adjusting. I took the spokes all out to measure them - I'll re-lace and see what happens. Being a complete newbie I can use the practice.
Sounds like a plan.
Using a digital caliper it looks like there's 3.5 - 4mm extra distance inside the nipples before the threaded portion starts, so 7-8 mm total distance figuring opposing sides of the rim. Of course I don't want to have to use all of it to give some headroom for adjusting. I took the spokes all out to measure them - I'll re-lace and see what happens. Being a complete newbie I can use the practice.
10-08-21, 01:44 PM
#14
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After lacing up my 700c wheel with a 3-cross pattern, I've concluded the 296mm spokes are too long - actually my Park Tool spoke length gauge shows them to be around 294 - 295mm but they were ordered as 296. With the nipples all threaded to the point where the threads just disappear into the shaft of the nipple the spokes are still way too loose, the nipple heads aren't even seated onto the grommets and there's only another 3 mm or so before the unthreaded part of the spoke runs into the nipple threads - I feel like there needs to be some thread headroom to allow for truing and dishing. I imagine they could stand to be 2 - 3 mm shorter.
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Rather than hunt down and pay for another set of these DT Swiss Alpine 3 spokes and have a bunch of spokes I can't use and maybe try to sell them on eBay for less than I paid, I'm looking at these Cyclo spoke threaders so I can use the spokes I have.
Do you see a problem with adding additional thread length to an already threaded spoke? As I understand it you roll the threads in stages with the threading head - so lets say I grind or cut 2 mm off a spoke, do you think it would be problematic to match it up to the portion of the threads that are already there and then add additional length to the threaded area?
Assuming a 36 hole hub, place 9 spokes on one side. Then immediately after this step, rotate the hub in on direction until it cant rotate any further. Lock in the rotation of the hub by placing a spoke on the opposite side of the hub in the appropriate position. Then lace the wheel fully.
You can build a proper wheel like this. The thing that is sacrificed by doing this is the nipple-spoke angle. A nipple can only move to a small extent in a standard rim, so if the spokes come in at a steep angle to the nipple a "broken line" or kink will be formed between the nipple and spoke. Many machine built wheels come with a noticeable kink, stemming from poor rim/spoke/hub combinations. Presumably, they still last for an acceptable period of time.
If you have ever removed spokes from an old wheel, some spokes will have a noticeable kink just below the end of the thread on the spoke. This is the end result of poor spoke-nipple alignment.
10-08-21, 01:50 PM
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What was the method that you used to select the 296 length? Spoke calculator? How did you get data on rim nipple seat dia. & hub specs.?
If these are correct and you used a proper calculator correctly, your length should be good.
If these are correct and you used a proper calculator correctly, your length should be good.
10-08-21, 02:47 PM
#17
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Depending on the calculator I have seen a 2mm difference in spoke lengths with the same dimensions inputted and after building the wheel was still off by 3mm. It happens...
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10-08-21, 03:37 PM
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It was what someone on here with more experience using spoke calculators suggested on a previous thread I posted. I'm not going to complain because they were trying to help. And the fact is I haven't yet reached a final verdict that the length is wrong. I'm going to try re-lacing and go farther into the nipple and see what happens.
10-08-21, 04:13 PM
#19
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I find, with using spoke lengths suggested by the calculators, you really don't start feeling any tension until the top of the spoke is right at the bottom of the slot in the nipple. Then a few of turns more and the wheel is pretty good.
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10-08-21, 04:20 PM
#20
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It was what someone on here with more experience using spoke calculators suggested on a previous thread I posted. I'm not going to complain because they were trying to help. And the fact is I haven't yet reached a final verdict that the length is wrong. I'm going to try re-lacing and go farther into the nipple and see what happens.
If the rim nipple seat dia. that they are using is correct then their estimate of 295 should be fine.
Re-lace with the correct pattern and we'll see...
10-08-21, 04:37 PM
#21
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Like the OP's wheel, most of the builds have been; 3x, 32 or 36H, Shimano standard hubs & 2.0 or 1.8 straight or DB spokes on 26" or 700C rims.
Never ran number of any strange or unusual builds, eg; low spoke count, paired spokes, unusually heavy dish, asymmetric drilling, extreme butted spokes, really deep rims, IGH hub, etc.
10-09-21, 01:26 PM
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The first step to solving a problem is to determine without a doubt that you have one!
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
Double-check your lacing, continue bringing up the spoke tension. If you can't get to full tension before the spokes bottom out, then we can talk about shortening them or buying new spokes.
If I were to do it again I'd go with 294 or 293 mm spokes.
10-09-21, 03:42 PM
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At this point I *think* it's going to work but it's close on some of the spokes. A couple of observations I've made is that there's some variance between spokes of supposedly the same length. I replaced a few that I think actually did bottom out with shorter ones out of the batch I got.
If I were to do it again I'd go with 294 or 293 mm spokes.
If I were to do it again I'd go with 294 or 293 mm spokes.
Do you have a measurement for how much of the spoke is threaded? I'm curious if maybe the wrong length nipples were included. It's also possible that you're the victim of production tolerances -- rims can vary between the beginning and end of a production run (Sun rims are known for this), so your rim might not match someone else's ERD measurement.
If you're getting really close to final tension when the spokes are bottoming out, one alternative to re-threading the spokes would be to use nipple washers. These ones would give you close to another 2 turns of the nipple, if my math is right.
