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One x drivetrain... Hoping I made the right decision

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One x drivetrain... Hoping I made the right decision

Old 06-19-21, 02:11 PM
  #51  
tyrion
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
So I did a quick and dirty calculation that basically took the BB center-to-center to rear axle measurement and 1/2 a cassette width. The CTC varies but around 15.5 to 16 is probably close enough. 400mm splits the difference and is a nice round number. This is pretty rudimentary and is not intended to analyze any other factors. But I wanted to know what angles are we really talking about.

For a 1x11, I used 400mm and 20mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get a roughly calculated angle of 2.86 degrees. Which is the maximum chain angle running at either end of the cassette.

For a 1x6, I used 400mm and 15mm (about 1/2 cassette width) to get an angle of 2.15 degrees maximum chain angle.

Just for fun I took a 2x8 setup and cross chained it. Using 400mm and 20.2mm (1/2 cassette width of 17.7 + 2.5mm chainring adjustment) to get an angle of 2.89 degrees. This would be big-big or small-small.

Where does the cross chain "angle" become an issue? Is 2 degrees the limit? 2.5 degrees?

An obvious response is anything beyond a single speed causes theoretical wear.

I was pretty surprised that the angle we are talking about is less than a degree.

John
Some info here:

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/f...oper-shifting/

According to the article, on a typical road bike, the most drag is in small-small 39-11, which has 3 watts more drag than the nearly equivalent 53-15. The smaller cog and chainring as well as the chain angle contribute to the increased drag.

The source of the data was from a company called Friction Facts, which was acquired by Ceramic Speed, and the data doesn't seem to be freely available now.
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Old 06-19-21, 02:41 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
thatís exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesnít make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
Yeah, simpler, lighter, easier to maintain.... hilarious

Almost as funny as those tiny little cassettes that you need an extra shifter, derailleur, and muliple rings to make work.

Last edited by Kapusta; 06-19-21 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 06-19-21, 03:08 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
I understand your point as well and you are 100% incorrect that a 1x causes more cross chaining. The school which awarded you an engineering degree should be returning your monies. If you do not have an engineering degree then perhaps that is why you do not understand the issue and now feel need to turn to semantics (rhetoric) to try to salvage your spurious argument.

Nice try. I accept fully that you do not understand. At all.

The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens. And it is absolutely eliminated when there is no front derailleur. Is there something about this that you do not understand? Yhat is what the argument really comes down to and why cross chaining is a negative. All the other reasons why it was bad previously have mostly been eliminated by modern techs.

I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur.

Understand or still want to take a piss on this?

Ima go ride my 1x now, on some really big hills here, and 'cross chain' my way into a better day then dealing with silliness.
That is so dependent upon the number of rear cogs and chainrings, plus the design of the front derailleur, that such a generalized statement is just NOT the case.

Case in point, I have a Tiagra triple drivetrain on my road bike. 12-30 10-speed cassette and Tiagra 4603 50-39-30 crank. The FD is a Tiagra triple FD-4603, rear is a Tiagra 4601 SS (short cage). I have ridden in all rear cogs on all three chainwheels, and the FD has never rubbed. Now I do not usually use the small/small or large/large combos, but tried it as I had never had a triple and wanted to see if there was more rubbing. There was not. That has been my experiences with real riding. This is on a bike with a 425mm chainestay and 130mm hub. Others may have different experiences with the same or different setups.
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Old 06-19-21, 04:06 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens.

I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur.
Originally Posted by Bill in VA View Post
That is so dependent upon the number of rear cogs and chainrings, plus the design of the front derailleur, that such a generalized statement is just NOT the case.
Sure, that's a benefit of a 1x drivetrain, but there are other ways to avoid chain rub -- such as setting up the drivetrain properly, using the FD "trim" feature, or running an electronic drivetrain. I love hearing my FD trim itself automatically as I shift the chain across the cassette.

Chain rub is a non-issue.
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Old 06-19-21, 04:35 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
thatís exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesnít make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
I guess that makes you feel superior. I have bikes with 1x, 2x, 3x setups. They all work fine for me. I just donít get this judgmental attitude some here have.
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Old 06-19-21, 04:37 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by waxcrazy View Post
I bought a Sirrus X5.0 with a 1x drivetrain a little bit back..I live in very hilly New England finding myself in the cross chain situation a lot for the lower gears. Just read a article on how the 1x drivetrain wears out much faster because of this...Has this been a issue for anyone or am I just worrying to worry? I'm hoping Specialized somehow accommodated for this with beefed up chainrings etc.
Thanks
you are worrying to worry IMO. ride your bike and enjoy it.
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Old 06-21-21, 08:41 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I just ordered a new derailleur hanger for my Lynskey Backroad. My wife's e-bike fell on it and bent it.
And this is why we don't buy e-bikes.
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Old 06-21-21, 08:50 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by rydabent View Post
This 1x is a passing fad. Personally if you live in a hilly area, you really should have a triple in front.
LOL. 1x is already the norm on Mountain Bikes. Gravel Bikes are also moving to 1x. Road bikes are down to 2x right now and will probably stay there. 3x isn't necessary with the wider range cassettes that are possible with the wider spaced rear hubs.

I live in a hilly area and my road bike has a 2x 50/34 crank and 11-34 cassette. I can't remember the last time I used the 34t chainring.
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Old 06-21-21, 08:56 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Cpn_Dunsel View Post
The biggest negative about cross chaining is chain rub on front derailleur. It is not a myth. It really happens. And it is absolutely eliminated when there is no front derailleur. Is there something about this that you do not understand? Yhat is what the argument really comes down to and why cross chaining is a negative. All the other reasons why it was bad previously have mostly been eliminated by modern techs.

I repeat it: Cross chaining leads to chain rub on a front derailleur (a negative) and this is eliminated when there is no front derailleur..
Trimming on the front derailleur has solved this problem. Never a problem on any modern road bike. My chain never rubs my front derailleur when I'm cross chained.



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Old 06-21-21, 09:00 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
that’s exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesn’t make any sense to me.
If you did some research on gear ratio overlap between 1x and 3x systems it would make sense to you. It's not that difficult to understand.
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Old 06-22-21, 02:23 PM
  #61  
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Patiently waiting for unterhausen to draw the respective 1X and 2X free body diagrams. Hell, make a 3X just for kicks!
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Old 06-23-21, 02:29 PM
  #62  
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I finally had my bike shop check the noise out..He definitely heard I in the first 3 low gears... Actually while on the bike stand with no weight or tension on it you could actually see the chain want to jump a little on only the very lowest gear...He checked all adjustments and alignments..oiled the chain took it for another ride and checked everything on the stand again and came to the conclusion that it was unfortunately normal due to the large cassette and position of chain while going over to the big lowest gear...He showed me the chain angle which was really crossed in that configuration and basically said it was the nature of the set up...so I guess I just ride and enjoy and not let the noise bother me.
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Old 06-23-21, 03:21 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by waxcrazy View Post
I finally had my bike shop check the noise out..He definitely heard I in the first 3 low gears... Actually while on the bike stand with no weight or tension on it you could actually see the chain want to jump a little on only the very lowest gear...He checked all adjustments and alignments..oiled the chain took it for another ride and checked everything on the stand again and came to the conclusion that it was unfortunately normal due to the large cassette and position of chain while going over to the big lowest gear...He showed me the chain angle which was really crossed in that configuration and basically said it was the nature of the set up...so I guess I just ride and enjoy and not let the noise bother me.
This may make Cpn_Dunsel 's head explode.
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Old 06-23-21, 03:40 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
thatís exactly why we went from two chainrings to three. This whole 1x doesnít make any sense to me. If you need more climbing range then get it with a triple. When I see a single chain ring with a gigantic cluster in the back I break out laughing. Like the one they gave Boris Johnson at the recent G7 meeting. What a joke.
Nobody needs 3 chainrings when you have an 11 or 12 speed cassette. That's basically why triples don't exist anymore. It's even borderline whether you need 1 or 2 chainrings. For mountain biking 1x is definitely all you need. For road use a double still probably has the edge if you live somewhere with steep hills. Triples made some sense when there were only a handful of gears at the back. If you ever get over the apparent hilarity of a large 11/12 speed cassette, you may find that they are actually pretty effective.
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Old 06-23-21, 05:08 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
You probably need to adjust the barrels. My Girlfriend has a Sirrus X 5.0 and it makes no noise at all.
Maybe she should ride it.
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Old 06-24-21, 09:09 AM
  #66  
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She rides it weekly.
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Old 06-24-21, 12:45 PM
  #67  
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Range isn’t the issue with 1x it’s the steps on the cassette some folks are sensitive to bigger jumps which is probably why 2x and 3x won’t go away.
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Old 06-24-21, 01:58 PM
  #68  
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While I will avoid the more academic discussion as to what constitutes cross chaining, in common precautionary parlance for triples, it refers to shifting into the opposite spectrum of cassette cogs from the chain ring you are currently in.

If you are in the large chain ring, avoid the low end of the cassette. If you are in the small chain ring, avoid the higher range cogs. The middle chain ring usually shifts the full range of the cog.

It is not just to avoid chain angle but also chain tension/sag. On a wider range cassette you can stretch and jam the rear derailer in high/low or have way too much sag in low high, depending.

1x is the same as running up and down the middle chainring, thus avoiding cross chaining.

With a double and tight road cluster you may never experience that.
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