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Abiding hatred for bicycle derailleur drive trains

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Abiding hatred for bicycle derailleur drive trains

Old 11-12-19, 07:59 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
Funny, and so close to perfect. There is a red squiggly line in the pic...
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Old 11-12-19, 10:47 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by tgenec86 View Post
It would never work. I mean, seriously - who'd buy them?
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Old 11-12-19, 10:58 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Slightspeed View Post
Recently someone posted on BF a derailleur + IGH combo that had 82 ratios or something. He claimed that there was very little overlap between gears. Sorry to hijack your hijack 😎. Maybe somebody else can find it.
That might have been me. I used a 3 x 9 set up on an RK3 hub, resulting in 81 gears
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Old 11-12-19, 11:39 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Boxkite View Post
Has anyone ever used an IGH and RD combo? That would be fun! I don't know anything about IGH as far as axle length and whether or not a multi-speed cassette can be affixed to one. Sorry for hijack.
My 1989 Pugeot Montreal Express has a Shimano Nexus 7 with an 18 tooth cog paired with a 52-36 double. The secret sauce is the vintage abarasque Shimano 600 short cage derailleur.

Lessons learned on the project:
I found that the freewheel mechanism had enough internal resistance that the extra chain tension provided by a short cage derailleur was warranted.

I had to obtain the appropriate anti-rotation washers, for the hub shifting mechanism to point where it made sense.

I needed to use a fine tooth hacksaw to cut the chainstay cable stop lengthwise to facilitate wheel removal. (Turned it into a split cable stop)

Additionally, there needed to be a short section of cable housing to get from the chainstay cable stop to the hub. The cable housing was too short to be practical unless it was flexible coil wound brake housing since the location was originally intended to serve a derailleur system. No big deal in practice, even if difficult & inconvenient to work with. The housing did need metal ferrules to stay put at the hub because of hub shifter cable stop design.

In the end, I brazed on a new split cable stop about 2 inches further away. That solved all the issues, inconvenience & allowed shifter cable housing to be used. But I think there maybe clamp on cable stops that would work as well if you find difficulty & choose not to braze.

Also a cable break/splitter like you find on S&S coupled bikes makes a lot of sense so you never need to fuss with the hub shifting mechanism or be tied to the bike when removing the wheel.

IGH's have limited ratio restrictions.
The Nexus 7 is 2:1...So, an 18 tooth cog can only be driven by a 36 tooth or bigger sprocket. From there it's a matter of finding a large chain ring that avoids duplicate ratios. A 52-36 crankset provides decent spread with evenly spaced non-duplicates. But that only matters if you care about evenly spaced gears; 53-39 lines up with nearly all duplicates.

A 53-36 or 50-34 crankset works nearly as well as a 52-36 but not quite as good in terms of spread between gears. A 19 tooth cog is the lowest Shimano legal but isn't as low in ratio as 18/36 and the gear spacing is less even across the range.

The next suitable ratio I found was a 28-40 like available on an XT M785 crankset, but a 14 tooth Sturmey Archer cog is too small in diameter to fit the Nexus hub. (The chain will rub on stuff) So, I had to scrap that idea.

Further on the crankset side, is q-factor. The road crank arms kept hitting the chain stays on my particular project. So my gut reaction is to suggest a mountain crankset as it is more likely to work if converting an older wide chainstayed mountain bike with a 68mm bottom bracket shell. Conversly, that means Hollowtech road stuff is less likely to work IMO/IME. Of course that depends on what you are starting with. The dilly is modern 4 bolt mountain bike cranksets won't do the optimal 52-36 chainrings even if you spacer out the 68mm bottom bracket shell. So you have a connundrum. (sp?)

In my case, the ideal solution was a 116mm square taper bottom bracket and a generic mountain bike triple with a 110mm 5 armed crank spider. The 52-36 rings bolted right on. Easy as pie.

By way of experimenting from the parts box after giving up on the Hollowtech route: The 110mm bottom bracket I first tried caused interference between the rings & the chainstay, & the 123mm bottom bracket made for terrible chainline & terrible shifting to the big ring on account of being at the extreme range of the front derailleur.

I mention all this because although the system works beautifully it may take a little experimenting & budget to find the best combination of components.

353% range in total from 31.3 to 110 gear inches.
The percentage jump between gears is 17, 14, 8, 8, 8, 7, 6, 10, 7, 8, 7, 17, & 16%
So the bike is good for about 8 to about 30 miles per hour at 90rpm. With the closest ratios between 12-22 mph.

Info overload, I know. But, TLDR; Yes, someone has tried it.

Last edited by base2; 11-13-19 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Missle annie us typographical errors
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Old 11-12-19, 12:04 PM
  #55  
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OK but who's going to man up and run a Rohloff with a a Pinion plus both a front and rear derailleur?
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Old 11-12-19, 12:06 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
They do, but the current version accepts 8/9/10 speed cassettes.
Sturmey-Archer | CS-RF3 Silver
Ha! That's awesome. If it takes 8/9/10 road, then it'll take 11 speed mountain. Pair that up with a triple...3x11x3=99 gears!

Methinks you'd need third shifter located somewhere though, for the front.
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Old 11-12-19, 12:34 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Ha! That's awesome. If it takes 8/9/10 road, then it'll take 11 speed mountain. Pair that up with a triple...3x11x3=99 gears!

Methinks you'd need third shifter located somewhere though, for the front.
99 combos of gears on the bike,
99 combos of gears,
Hit a dog,
Bust a cog,
90 combos of gear on the bike
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Old 11-12-19, 12:46 PM
  #58  
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Old 11-12-19, 01:05 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
99 combos of gears on the bike,
99 combos of gears,
Hit a dog,
Bust a cog,
90 combos of gear on the bike
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Old 11-12-19, 07:02 PM
  #60  
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To hijack this thread further... maybe an IGH by itself but mount a chain tensioner to take up slack for a double or triple up front! Not 99 gears but with a Sturmey Archer 8 speed you can have up to 24! I have an old frame lying about..... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
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Old 11-12-19, 09:11 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by mtb_addict View Post
All bicycle transmission systems sux, period.

The derailleur is simply the least sucky of them all.
Single speed freewheel system doesn't suck. The gearing might suck, but the transmission is as good as it gets.
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Old 11-12-19, 09:53 PM
  #62  
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I absolutely love riding a 12- 23 9-speed. All those 1 and 2 tooth jumps. I also have the range of a 10-42 cassette. (50-38-24 triple) I'll go 1X when they come out with a 17 cog cassette and I can get the small jumps and good range (and keep the hub and dropout spacing the same as 9-speed to keep my knees happy - Q-factor).

My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.

wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.

Ben
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Old 11-13-19, 06:15 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
I absolutely love riding a 12- 23 9-speed. All those 1 and 2 tooth jumps. I also have the range of a 10-42 cassette. (50-38-24 triple) I'll go 1X when they come out with a 17 cog cassette and I can get the small jumps and good range (and keep the hub and dropout spacing the same as 9-speed to keep my knees happy - Q-factor).

My current 9-speed w/ DT is so reliably I have full faith that it will work until that 17-speed cassette comes out.

wphamilton, for some of us, fix gears don't suck either.

Ben
Very true and I love riding fixed gear. I finally had a pedal strike that wiped me out, which hurt, so I don't want to go as far as saying that it didn't suck. I think you have to include the pedals as "drive train".
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Old 11-13-19, 07:36 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Sorry but nearly 40 years of mountain bike use says otherwise. Derailers aren’t all that delicate or prone to failure. Yes, they can be damaged but it takes a lot to wear one out.
Sure, derailleurs themselves can last a long time. On the other hand, chains, which are a part of the derailleur drivetrain, have quite limited lifespan, especially in the aforementioned conditions.
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Old 11-13-19, 08:37 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Boxkite View Post
To hijack this thread further... maybe an IGH by itself but mount a chain tensioner to take up slack for a double or triple up front! Not 99 gears but with a Sturmey Archer 8 speed you can have up to 24! I have an old frame lying about..... Weeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
That is what I was describing in my previous reply to you. A Shimano Nexus 7 with a double crankset. 14 speeds, evenly spaced due to chainring selection with the middle 10 speeds being close ratio at about 7 to 8% apart.
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Old 11-13-19, 08:41 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by subgrade View Post
Sure, derailleurs themselves can last a long time. On the other hand, chains, which are a part of the derailleur drivetrain, have quite limited lifespan, especially in the aforementioned conditions.
Lots of equipment on bicycles have a limited lifespan but we aren't looking to replace them with something else. Tires, tubes, brake pads, and chains all wear. It's just part of the sport.

Even the carbon belts that are suggested above wear out. They may take longer but they are more expensive to replace. A good, serviceable chain can be had for around $12 and lasts around 3000 miles. A carbon belt costs $75 to $100 and lasts 19,000 miles. That's 6 times as long as a chain but the replacement cost is 6 times the cost.

There are also other considerations. A chain drive system can have incredibly wide gear ranges with little weight. As stated above, I have bikes with gear ranges of over 700%. No IGH system can match that and the ones that come close place a lot of extra weight on the bike. IGH systems with a gear range that is closer to that of a chain drive system cost several times more as well.
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Old 11-13-19, 11:30 AM
  #67  
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The OP is a one time poster and has not returned to this thread.

We’ve been well trolled.
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Old 11-13-19, 12:40 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The OP is a one time poster and has not returned to this thread.

We’ve been well trolled.
Disagree. A good time has been had by all.
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Old 11-13-19, 12:45 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The OP is a one time poster and has not returned to this thread.

We’ve been well trolled.
Sometimes I get a little jealous by how much impact a seagull can have with one post and a few minutes of time.
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Old 11-13-19, 02:04 PM
  #70  
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One time posts 🤡 should self destruct after 24 hours, but what fun would that be?
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Old 11-13-19, 04:39 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by MikeyMK View Post
I'm not a fan of derailleurs, but it's the only way to get the range I like.

I'm struggling with the tandem. The extra long gear cable and 10 speeds have proven impossible to get right. I have no choice because I use a rear hub motor, but I'll go back to the more forgiving 8-speed on the next full rebuild.
The gear cables of most bikes, including tandems, run without housing except for the last 8" at the RD and a foot or two at the control end, depending on lever type. Both singles and tandems should present the same amount of friction (i.e. hassle). Stretch in a derailleur cable is a non-issue because of the (relatively) low tension a gear cable experiences. Setup is tricky for a 10 speed I'll grant, but it can be done with enough patience. Sheldon Brown's instructions for setting up rear index shifting works if you put in the required patience and trial and error.
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Old 11-13-19, 07:45 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
99 combos of gears on the bike,
99 combos of gears,
Hit a dog,
Bust a cog,
90 combos of gear on the bike
Slip on a frog.... Take out a hog.... Drank too much grog.... lept onto a log...
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Old 11-14-19, 10:59 AM
  #73  
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Maybe it was a troll post, but the discussion has been entertaining, informative, and rewarding.
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Old 11-14-19, 03:46 PM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Boxkite View Post
Slip on a frog.... Take out a hog.... Drank too much grog.... lept onto a log...
Drink even more nog.
Sink in a bog.
Hit a tree in the fog.
Plunk a guy on a jog.
Rear wheel went agog.
Rode through Gog and Magog.

No combos of gears on the bike.

Last edited by livedarklions; 11-14-19 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 11-14-19, 07:55 PM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by rollagain View Post
Sadly, I don't see internal-gear drives ever competing with derailleurs in cost or weight, both of which limit market appeal and thereby cancel economy-of-scale advantages.
I believe there are about 4x as many IGH's in use worldwide as derailleurs. They are the drivetrain of choice for commuters in most countries outside of the U.S.

Both have their place. We have derailleurs on our sport/recreation bikes - road and mountain. They are lighter, provide a greater range and are a bit more efficient.

The bikes we use for daily transportation all have IGH. The fully enclosed drivetrain means we can wear whatever clothes we want, they are ultra-reliable and largely maintenance-free, and don't get gooked up during snowy winter rides.
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