Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

10 speed Shimano brifters with 9 speed triple crank?

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

10 speed Shimano brifters with 9 speed triple crank?

Old 09-20-16, 08:34 AM
  #1  
MnHPVA Guy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 11 Posts
10 speed Shimano brifters with 9 speed triple crank?

Has anyone used 10 speed Shimano road brifters with 9 speed triple crank?

I have a customer who needs a shortened 24/36/46 road crank, The 9 speed Andels, same as those that come on the Surly LHT, can be shortened, And they work with a 10 speed drivetrain when shifted with bar end shifters which are friction on the left. But I have no experience with brifters. Never even ridden a bike with them.
MnHPVA Guy is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 08:55 AM
  #2  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,003

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4172 Post(s)
Liked 3,791 Times in 2,270 Posts
I believe that all current Shimano 10 speed road STI shifters only are designed with a double crankset in mind. So while they MIGHT index with two of the three rings, not having a third lever "position" means that one of the three rings will go un shifted.
Andrew R Stewart is online now  
Old 09-20-16, 09:07 AM
  #3  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,650
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 835 Post(s)
Liked 1,054 Times in 740 Posts
You'll need to get a 10sp brifter made for triples which should work fine with a 9sp crank.
Crankycrank is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 09:18 AM
  #4  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,869
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked 1,671 Times in 955 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I believe that all current Shimano 10 speed road STI shifters only are designed with a double crankset in mind. So while they MIGHT index with two of the three rings, not having a third lever "position" means that one of the three rings will go un shifted.
Just checked, Shimano makes a triple version of their Tiagra component group. However that means that you have to have the matching Tiagra 4700 derailleurs
alcjphil is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 09:42 AM
  #5  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Cranks only have 1,2or3 "speeds"
fietsbob is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 09:56 AM
  #6  
MNBikeCommuter
Senior Member
 
MNBikeCommuter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 852

Bikes: Cannondale '92 T600 '95 H600 '01 RT1000

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 104 Times in 80 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
I believe that all current Shimano 10 speed road STI shifters only are designed with a double crankset in mind. So while they MIGHT index with two of the three rings, not having a third lever "position" means that one of the three rings will go un shifted.
Ultegra stopped at 10 speed with support for a triple. 6703 levers are the most recent and I'm sure they're still available. I assume there are 105 10 speed triples available too, but "assuming" and "Shimano" in the same sentence implies "do research." :-)
MNBikeCommuter is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 09:59 AM
  #7  
Tim_Iowa
Senior Member
 
Tim_Iowa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 1,643

Bikes: 1997 Rivendell Road Standard 650b conversion (tourer), 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10 (gravel/tour), 2013 Foundry Auger disc (CX/gravel), 2016 Cannondale Fat CAAD 2 (MTB/winter), 2011 Cannondale Flash 29er Lefty (trail MTB)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 167 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
Cranks only have 1,2or3 "speeds"
Technically correct, Bob.
But the makers of chainrings have been adjusting the spacing between the rings and the sculpted pins and ramps (aka "shift aids") to match the increasingly-narrow chains of 9, 10, and 11 speed indexed shifting systems.

@MnHPVA Guy, The general rule of thumb is that one "speed" difference should work fine (aka, a "9 speed" crankset should work ok with 10 speed chain).

The other posters have made good points as well.

Tiagra 4700 is an odd duck; the rear derailleur/shifter indexes 10 speeds but uses the same cable pull as Shimano's 11 speed road shifters. That's why @alcjphil says you need to match the 4700 rear derailleur with the 4700 brifter.

@MnHPVA Guy, any other (not Tiagra 4700) 3 x 10 Shimano brifters will index perfectly with the existing 9-speed derailleurs; all Shimano 7-through-10-speed road RDs (except Tiagra 4700 and 6-8 speed Dura Ace) use the SIS index standard, so they're all cross-compatible.

So, you could help your customer find:
3 x 10 brifters (5700, 6700, or Microshift R10)
10 speed chain
10-speed cassette
and use these with the existing 9-speed crankset and derailleurs.
Tim_Iowa is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 10:36 AM
  #8  
MnHPVA Guy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 11 Posts
More info

I should have included the following from the customer.
" I am currently using Shimano 10 speed Ultegra FD-6603 front shifter with a Ultegra FD-6603 front derailleur. My current crankset is an FSA Gossamer 53/39/30 with 130mm BCD and 74mm BCD and a 175mm crank arm length."

I sell about 250 shortened cranksets per year. With indexed shifting, 8 & 9 spacing are close enough to be interchangeable. And 10 speed cranks will work on 11 speed indexed drivetrains.

But for 10 speed cranks intended to be used with indexed 8/9 speed front shifters, I install FSA "9 Speed" spacers. These put an additional 0.44mm between the rings. 0.44mm may not be precisely to spec, but customers are happy with the result.

The reason for replacing a 10 speed crank with a 9 is that there are no shortenable 10 speed triples that will take the ring sizes he needs.

What I'm after is whether anyone has used a 9 speed crank with 10 speed Shimano brifters. Is there any trim with the brifters that would allow this? Or is there enough leeway that 0.44mm is not an issue?

My newest road bike is a 1986 Jack Taylor so this sort of shifting is alien to me.

BTW Manufacturers are aiming to get us all on 1x12 because indexed front shifting is such a clusterf**k. I know quite a few folks who are so fed up that they are running mis-matched shifters to get friction on the front.

Last edited by MnHPVA Guy; 09-20-16 at 10:42 AM.
MnHPVA Guy is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 12:24 PM
  #9  
shelbyfv
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,457
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3637 Post(s)
Liked 5,314 Times in 2,700 Posts
I have a bike with 6603 shifters and 6503 front derailleur and crank. Works fine.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 05:49 PM
  #10  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,003

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4172 Post(s)
Liked 3,791 Times in 2,270 Posts
Glad to see I was corrected. Andy
Andrew R Stewart is online now  
Old 09-20-16, 05:59 PM
  #11  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,869
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked 1,671 Times in 955 Posts
Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Glad to see I was corrected. Andy
Turns out that the OP forgot to mention that his customer already has a Shimano 10 speed triple component setup
alcjphil is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 06:18 PM
  #12  
well biked
Senior Member
 
well biked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,487
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by MnHPVA Guy

What I'm after is whether anyone has used a 9 speed crank with 10 speed Shimano brifters.

If you are considering using a 10 speed chain with "9 speed" cranks , then:

FWIW, I have seen more than one case (I can think of two specific cases, actually) where "9 speed" double cranksets did NOT work with otherwise 10-speed drivetrains, in my bike shop. In both cases, one with an FSA "9 speed" crankset, the other with a Shimano Ultegra "9 speed" crankset, the 10 speed chain skated and would not reliably engage immediately when shifting from big ring to small ring, and the situation was actually somewhat dangerous because the rider would attempt to shift from big ring to small ring and, momentarily at least, the cranks would then spin freely without load. Not a good situation. With the installation of a "10 speed" crankset, both of these cases were successfully solved.

YMMV, and I also realize you're talking about a triple vs. a double. But IME, it's not a gimme. And every time I've posted this information in the past (it's been awhile), it's met with responses of "well I have done it successfully on my bike, so you're wrong." Just reporting what I've seen and experienced first hand; again YMMV, and different drivetrains will behave differently.

Last edited by well biked; 09-20-16 at 06:39 PM.
well biked is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 07:35 PM
  #13  
MnHPVA Guy
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 798
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by well biked
If you are considering using a 10 speed chain with "9 speed" cranks , then:

FWIW, I have seen more than one case (I can think of two specific cases, actually) where "9 speed" double cranksets did NOT work with otherwise 10-speed drivetrains, in my bike shop. In both cases, one with an FSA "9 speed" crankset, the other with a Shimano Ultegra "9 speed" crankset, the 10 speed chain skated and would not reliably engage immediately when shifting from big ring to small ring, and the situation was actually somewhat dangerous because the rider would attempt to shift from big ring to small ring and, momentarily at least, the cranks would then spin freely without load. Not a good situation. With the installation of a "10 speed" crankset, both of these cases were successfully solved.
Thank you Well Biked. That wasn't what I'd hoped to hear. But better to know now, than to hear about it from an unhappy customer. If 2 rings can be problematic, a triple would be even more likely to have problems.

Last edited by MnHPVA Guy; 09-20-16 at 07:38 PM.
MnHPVA Guy is offline  
Old 09-20-16, 08:05 PM
  #14  
shelbyfv
Expired Member
 
shelbyfv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,457
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3637 Post(s)
Liked 5,314 Times in 2,700 Posts
Although my setup works, I have heard of others that didn't, as well biked mentioned. I doubt I'd want to mess with this in a seller/ customer situation.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 09-21-16, 08:54 AM
  #15  
Andrew R Stewart 
Senior Member
 
Andrew R Stewart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 18,003

Bikes: Stewart S&S coupled sport tourer, Stewart Sunday light, Stewart Commuting, Stewart Touring, Co Motion Tandem, Stewart 3-Spd, Stewart Track, Fuji Finest, Mongoose Tomac ATB, GT Bravado ATB, JCP Folder, Stewart 650B ATB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4172 Post(s)
Liked 3,791 Times in 2,270 Posts
Originally Posted by well biked
If you are considering using a 10 speed chain with "9 speed" cranks , then:

FWIW, I have seen more than one case (I can think of two specific cases, actually) where "9 speed" double cranksets did NOT work with otherwise 10-speed drivetrains, in my bike shop. In both cases, one with an FSA "9 speed" crankset, the other with a Shimano Ultegra "9 speed" crankset, the 10 speed chain skated and would not reliably engage immediately when shifting from big ring to small ring, and the situation was actually somewhat dangerous because the rider would attempt to shift from big ring to small ring and, momentarily at least, the cranks would then spin freely without load. Not a good situation. With the installation of a "10 speed" crankset, both of these cases were successfully solved.

YMMV, and I also realize you're talking about a triple vs. a double. But IME, it's not a gimme. And every time I've posted this information in the past (it's been awhile), it's met with responses of "well I have done it successfully on my bike, so you're wrong." Just reporting what I've seen and experienced first hand; again YMMV, and different drivetrains will behave differently.
This problem, of the chain 'skating' over the smaller ring's teeth after a shift from the larger ring, has been around since the dawn of double (and triple) cranksets. We saw this often during the 1970s and 1980s. Often after the OEM chain was replaced with a narrower one (like the 7.8mm wide 5 speed chain replaced with a 7.3mm wide "Ultra" one). But as the larger rings began to incorporate dishing/shaping this problem largely went away. Also the more modern cranksets placed the rings closer together. We do see this problem every so often, ironically from a ring being reinstalled backwards and the ring to ring spacing gets altered to be too little. Andy.
Andrew R Stewart is online now  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
MTBislife
General Cycling Discussion
5
11-12-17 08:08 PM
venturi95
Bicycle Mechanics
6
05-14-15 02:29 PM
mechanicmatt
Classic & Vintage
6
11-29-14 03:48 PM
tish4398
Bicycle Mechanics
3
10-01-12 02:13 PM
Didi2005
Road Cycling
13
09-21-11 10:06 AM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.