Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic
08-12-22, 01:23 AM
#101
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Yes, rim brakes weight less, are less fragile than disc and need less maintenance than hydraulic disc brakes.
But they have also drawbacks especially on small wheel bikes on which the wear of the rim is faster and on which rim become faster hot than on big wheels.
Rim brakes are also more affected by water/rain.
So the choice between rim or disc brakes on a small wheel bike isn't obvious, both have advantages and drawbacks.
Mechanical disc brakes like the TRP Spyre can be a good tradeoff, they aren't very expensive and weight less than many hydraulic disc brakes.
But they have also drawbacks especially on small wheel bikes on which the wear of the rim is faster and on which rim become faster hot than on big wheels.
Rim brakes are also more affected by water/rain.
So the choice between rim or disc brakes on a small wheel bike isn't obvious, both have advantages and drawbacks.
Mechanical disc brakes like the TRP Spyre can be a good tradeoff, they aren't very expensive and weight less than many hydraulic disc brakes.
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08-12-22, 05:10 AM
#102
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ha! I suggested bringing back the Swift on the thread "Looking for Feedback - Origami Lotus" comment #147.
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
[QUOTE=Pinigis;22605791]OK, I need a little help. I lost track and cannot remember who first suggested that Origami bring back the Swift. If it
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
On the topic of 20" folders, would Origami ever consider adding a Swift to its menagerie of Gazelles, Wasps, Falcons, Bulls, and Eagles?
Since Xootr gave up the game there's been no mass production variant of this extremely excellent and time tested design. Doing away with the bulky hinge in the middle of the frame is its stroke of genius and it rides stiff, true and fast. The frame is also a bit lighter as a result.
I could totally imagine myself riding on a 4130 chromoly disc brake equipped Origami Swift. It'd be a worthy flagship machine. What would be the drawbacks?
Since Xootr gave up the game there's been no mass production variant of this extremely excellent and time tested design. Doing away with the bulky hinge in the middle of the frame is its stroke of genius and it rides stiff, true and fast. The frame is also a bit lighter as a result.
I could totally imagine myself riding on a 4130 chromoly disc brake equipped Origami Swift. It'd be a worthy flagship machine. What would be the drawbacks?
08-12-22, 05:47 AM
#103
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[QUOTE=joey buzzard;22607636]ha! I suggested bringing back the Swift on the thread "Looking for Feedback - Origami Lotus" comment #147.
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
excellent! Thank you. I would like to give you one from the first production run as a thank you. I will only ask that you pay shipping.
please email me at paul@origamibicycles.com do we can figure this out.
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
please email me at paul@origamibicycles.com do we can figure this out.
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08-12-22, 10:35 AM
#104
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[QUOTE=Pinigis;22607651]
Thanks Paul, that's kind of you. Already e-mailed.
ha! I suggested bringing back the Swift on the thread "Looking for Feedback - Origami Lotus" comment #147.
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
excellent! Thank you. I would like to give you one from the first production run as a thank you. I will only ask that you pay shipping.
please email me at paul@origamibicycles.com do we can figure this out.
Hopefully it was a good idea. I think that the Swift is a great design with tons of potential as a product. I've selfishly wanted there to be more of these in the world because I certainly wouldn't want to ever go Swift-less. Seeing more Swifts zooming around would make the world a slightly better place too imo. I'm thrilled that a comment I made on a BF thread instigated a new, modernized production run. It's pure magical for me, actually. Thanks Paul. I'm looking forward to seeing what you and the Origami team produce. The 58_11-40 gearing sounds totally fab. I hope that the development process has been enjoyable for you.
excellent! Thank you. I would like to give you one from the first production run as a thank you. I will only ask that you pay shipping.
please email me at paul@origamibicycles.com do we can figure this out.
Thanks Paul, that's kind of you. Already e-mailed.
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Congrats!!! ENJOY!!! 
08-12-22, 10:21 PM
#106
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What size is the seat post?
Edit: Will frame sets be available and if so what all would be in them?
I kind of can't wait
Edit: Will frame sets be available and if so what all would be in them?
I kind of can't wait
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08-13-22, 07:55 PM
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Seat post is 33.9mm. I wasn't really thinking about selling frame sets, but it is an option.
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Paul Pinigis
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Paul Pinigis
Owner of Origami Bicycle Company
08-15-22, 04:02 AM
#108
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The issue is that you chose to make your own decisions, which is indeed your right since your money is at stake. But, you shouldn't give the impression that this is a community endeavour. Gives the impression that it is for free publicity?
08-15-22, 04:08 AM
#109
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I have no preference for type of brakes. Should provide options for disc & rim brakes. User can choose.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
[QUOTE=Schwinnsta;22606994]
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
[QUOTE=Schwinnsta;22606994]
Same with dropouts. Semi-horizontal or adjustable dropouts could've accomodated IGHs. You didn't bother.
The case is the same with Lotus. You didn't implement any user suggestions.
I do not see any validity to this criticism. IGH can be used with vertical dropouts. Again, look to Brompton. News flash: chains can be adjusted by adding or subtracting links.
The case is the same with Lotus. You didn't implement any user suggestions.
I do not see any validity to this criticism. IGH can be used with vertical dropouts. Again, look to Brompton. News flash: chains can be adjusted by adding or subtracting links.
Bike seller wants disc, consumer wants disc, bike designer wants rim brakes. It plays out as expected.
There are personal choices, some of which are based on aesthetics and prestige (your buddies may turn up their nose at rim brakes and think you a country pumpkin) and not on facts. But, as a matter of verifiable fact, rim brakes are generally lighter, easier to adjust and maintain and cheaper while offering only marginally less good braking on folders. It is idiocy to dismiss rim brakes as an anachronism and a conceit to tar their users as Luddites or bottom-feeders. Particularly on folders. Comments like these give you insight into the minds of these silly, arrogant folk.
In any case it need not be either|or. Rim brake mounts can be easily manufactured onto a bike along with disc brake mounts.
There are personal choices, some of which are based on aesthetics and prestige (your buddies may turn up their nose at rim brakes and think you a country pumpkin) and not on facts. But, as a matter of verifiable fact, rim brakes are generally lighter, easier to adjust and maintain and cheaper while offering only marginally less good braking on folders. It is idiocy to dismiss rim brakes as an anachronism and a conceit to tar their users as Luddites or bottom-feeders. Particularly on folders. Comments like these give you insight into the minds of these silly, arrogant folk.
In any case it need not be either|or. Rim brake mounts can be easily manufactured onto a bike along with disc brake mounts.
Yes, rim brakes weight less, are less fragile than disc and need less maintenance than hydraulic disc brakes.
But they have also drawbacks especially on small wheel bikes on which the wear of the rim is faster and on which rim become faster hot than on big wheels.
Rim brakes are also more affected by water/rain.
So the choice between rim or disc brakes on a small wheel bike isn't obvious, both have advantages and drawbacks.
Mechanical disc brakes like the TRP Spyre can be a good tradeoff, they aren't very expensive and weight less than many hydraulic disc brakes.
But they have also drawbacks especially on small wheel bikes on which the wear of the rim is faster and on which rim become faster hot than on big wheels.
Rim brakes are also more affected by water/rain.
So the choice between rim or disc brakes on a small wheel bike isn't obvious, both have advantages and drawbacks.
Mechanical disc brakes like the TRP Spyre can be a good tradeoff, they aren't very expensive and weight less than many hydraulic disc brakes.
08-15-22, 05:32 AM
#110
Schwinnasaur
You seem to have a one-man operation. Is that the royal "we?"
The issue is that you chose to make your own decisions, which is indeed your right since your money is at stake. But, you shouldn't give the impression that this is a community endeavour. Gives the impression that it is for free publicity?
The issue is that you chose to make your own decisions, which is indeed your right since your money is at stake. But, you shouldn't give the impression that this is a community endeavour. Gives the impression that it is for free publicity?
I did not get the impression it was a community endeavor. I get the impression that the bike business is his second job or that he is not dependent on it. He seems to make bikes that he likes and that he hopes others will too. Anyway, Pinigis brings a lot of knowledge to this forum and shares it freely.
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08-15-22, 06:25 AM
#111
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I can't speak for him, but, I think he wanted suggestions for his own use so that he would not miss anything that he might incorporate in the design. An example, I suggested that he use sealed bearings in the headset so that the bike could more easily fit suitcases for travel. Whether he implements that is his decision. It is likely more costly.
I did not get the impression it was a community endeavor. I get the impression that the bike business is his second job or that he is not dependent on it. He seems to make bikes that he likes and that he hopes others will too. Anyway, Pinigis brings a lot of knowledge to this forum and shares it freely.
I did not get the impression it was a community endeavor. I get the impression that the bike business is his second job or that he is not dependent on it. He seems to make bikes that he likes and that he hopes others will too. Anyway, Pinigis brings a lot of knowledge to this forum and shares it freely.
Headset bearings are far easier to upgrade than dropouts and brake bosses!
08-15-22, 07:30 AM
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You seem to have a one-man operation. Is that the royal "we?"
The issue is that you chose to make your own decisions, which is indeed your right since your money is at stake. But, you shouldn't give the impression that this is a community endeavour. Gives the impression that it is for free publicity?
The issue is that you chose to make your own decisions, which is indeed your right since your money is at stake. But, you shouldn't give the impression that this is a community endeavour. Gives the impression that it is for free publicity?
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08-15-22, 07:33 AM
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[QUOTE=anga;22610512]I have no preference for type of brakes. Should provide options for disc & rim brakes. User can choose.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
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08-15-22, 10:34 AM
#114
Senior Member
You can do rim brakes with removable bosses, which are less ugly.
[QUOTE=Pinigis;22610651]
[QUOTE=Pinigis;22610651]
I have no preference for type of brakes. Should provide options for disc & rim brakes. User can choose.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
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08-15-22, 11:40 AM
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I also know it's not a democracy. I want thru axles, flat mount disk calipers, and SRAM UDH. You can just tell me not today bucko!
I think modular adjustable dropouts are going to be expensive. The reasonable price ones that someone in Taiwan might have on a shelf would be the Tange IRD that are found on Kona and Soma frames. They are copies of Paragon, I think? There are advantages and disadvantages - you can have a lot of modules, but also you kind of have to have a lot of modules. The disk mount doesn't need oblong holes since it's on the module. There are lots of proprietary ones like Salsa Alternators. I think Salsa are the only ones so far to do a flat mount version on their Stormchaser.
Surly trail bikes have dropouts that are not exactly modular but clever enough to permit through axle, QR, or single speed (the latter two require adding conversion washers on the axle). They are spaced 145 so you can jam in 142 or 148 hubs, but that might not be such a good idea for a 20" size aluminum triangle. Since they are not modular they have oblong holes for the brake caliper.
I think modular adjustable dropouts are going to be expensive. The reasonable price ones that someone in Taiwan might have on a shelf would be the Tange IRD that are found on Kona and Soma frames. They are copies of Paragon, I think? There are advantages and disadvantages - you can have a lot of modules, but also you kind of have to have a lot of modules. The disk mount doesn't need oblong holes since it's on the module. There are lots of proprietary ones like Salsa Alternators. I think Salsa are the only ones so far to do a flat mount version on their Stormchaser.
Surly trail bikes have dropouts that are not exactly modular but clever enough to permit through axle, QR, or single speed (the latter two require adding conversion washers on the axle). They are spaced 145 so you can jam in 142 or 148 hubs, but that might not be such a good idea for a 20" size aluminum triangle. Since they are not modular they have oblong holes for the brake caliper.
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08-15-22, 12:44 PM
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I like the modular dropout idea, but I'm sure it adds to the costs of production. Velo-Orange has them on their very popular Neutrino minivelo, and they look like budget versions of the Paragon Machine Works ones I have on another bike.
Bike Friday has a version of modular dropout on some of their frames that uses a pivot system secured by crank bolts. I've seen them on tikits, Silks and Silk New World Tourists of various sorts and vintages. They have different dropouts in stock to accommodate different hubs, derailleurs, IGH single or fixed. They work once they are dialed in.
The advantage with a steel frame is you can send it to your favorite framebuilder and get the things you dislike cut off and the things you want added on. For a price, or course. I'd probably be interested in a frame that I can customize and build up myself rather than a fully set up bike for this reason.
I would want canti mounts, modular dropouts, separatable drive side seatstay (for the eventual belt drive), fender/rack braze ons, and clearance for fat tires (2.3 or so).
David Dillard
Louisville
Bike Friday has a version of modular dropout on some of their frames that uses a pivot system secured by crank bolts. I've seen them on tikits, Silks and Silk New World Tourists of various sorts and vintages. They have different dropouts in stock to accommodate different hubs, derailleurs, IGH single or fixed. They work once they are dialed in.
The advantage with a steel frame is you can send it to your favorite framebuilder and get the things you dislike cut off and the things you want added on. For a price, or course. I'd probably be interested in a frame that I can customize and build up myself rather than a fully set up bike for this reason.
I would want canti mounts, modular dropouts, separatable drive side seatstay (for the eventual belt drive), fender/rack braze ons, and clearance for fat tires (2.3 or so).
David Dillard
Louisville
Last edited by daviddillard; 08-15-22 at 12:51 PM. Reason: additional info
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08-15-22, 02:08 PM
#117
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The Neutrino ones look like they're also the Tange IRD.
I notice all the Tange-IRD ones are on steel bikes.
Ventana hardtails have dropouts that resemble the Salsa Alternators but aren't the same.
I notice all the Tange-IRD ones are on steel bikes.
Ventana hardtails have dropouts that resemble the Salsa Alternators but aren't the same.
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08-16-22, 03:12 AM
#118
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[QUOTE=Pinigis;22610651]
On the contrary, when I come across a frame that accomodates multiple types of brakes and drivetrains, I am impressed that the designer provided options for a diverse group of customers.
I would like to have the option of switching between brake types and drivetrains.
Whichever modular system you choose, retain dimensional compatibility with Paragon. Go for stainless steel, no rusting or need for paint. PM or IS disc tabs are more useful than flat-mount.
I have no preference for type of brakes. Should provide options for disc & rim brakes. User can choose.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
I do have a preference for IGH. Makes little sense to use a chain tensioner or ebb when multiple types of dropouts are available to accommodate derailleurs and IGHs. My preference is for modular adjustable dropouts, though expensive. Don't care between track, horizontal and semi-horizontal.
The downside to providing bosses for vee brakes is purely aesthetic...they are ugly. Plus, they give the impression that the designer is indecisive. I will take a look at some modular adjustable dropouts (I am not familiar with these) and see if we can incorporate them.
I would like to have the option of switching between brake types and drivetrains.
Whichever modular system you choose, retain dimensional compatibility with Paragon. Go for stainless steel, no rusting or need for paint. PM or IS disc tabs are more useful than flat-mount.
08-17-22, 08:53 AM
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As someone that's always wanted a swift but hated the track drops and canti studs I'm really looking forward to this.
I'd prefer vertical drop outs and standard rack/fender mounts, basically the same as the other origami bikes. Maybe add a frameset with modular dropouts and a split stay since all that will add to the cost.
I'd prefer vertical drop outs and standard rack/fender mounts, basically the same as the other origami bikes. Maybe add a frameset with modular dropouts and a split stay since all that will add to the cost.
08-17-22, 09:43 AM
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As someone that's always wanted a swift but hated the track drops and canti studs I'm really looking forward to this.
I'd prefer vertical drop outs and standard rack/fender mounts, basically the same as the other origami bikes. Maybe add a frameset with modular dropouts and a split stay since all that will add to the cost.
I'd prefer vertical drop outs and standard rack/fender mounts, basically the same as the other origami bikes. Maybe add a frameset with modular dropouts and a split stay since all that will add to the cost.
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08-18-22, 01:54 AM
#121
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08-29-22, 11:04 AM
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Here's a suggestion, look at MontagueBikes and check out the different models they have:
https://www.montaguebikes.com/produc...lti-use-bikes/
Having a Boston version of the Swift would be great.
https://www.montaguebikes.com/produc...lti-use-bikes/
Having a Boston version of the Swift would be great.
Last edited by donlab; 08-29-22 at 11:07 AM. Reason: add picture
08-29-22, 11:38 AM
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Here's a suggestion, look at MontagueBikes and check out the different models they have:
https://www.montaguebikes.com/produc...lti-use-bikes/
Having a Boston version of the Swift would be great.
https://www.montaguebikes.com/produc...lti-use-bikes/
Having a Boston version of the Swift would be great.
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08-29-22, 12:29 PM
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08-29-22, 01:43 PM
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That's not exactly but kind of what I meant earlier in the thread about making a derailluer build and a BMX build. The net reach and stack would be about right though the rear center of the Swift is a lot longer.
That's also sort of why I was asking about the seat post. If it were one of the standard MTB sizes a dropper might be possible. That seems like something folders could use even if they're not using it like a MTBer
That's also sort of why I was asking about the seat post. If it were one of the standard MTB sizes a dropper might be possible. That seems like something folders could use even if they're not using it like a MTBer
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Genesis 49:16-17
Genesis 49:16-17
Last edited by Darth Lefty; 08-29-22 at 02:09 PM.
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