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When new SRAM Force/Red groupsets are expected?

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

When new SRAM Force/Red groupsets are expected?

Old 01-19-22, 08:48 PM
  #51  
tomato coupe
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Well yeah, I’ve got a SRAM Force AXS drivetrain with a 48/35 crankset and 10-33 cassette, and I roll either 35c or 42c rubber, so none of the gear combos actually move the bike the same distance per revolution (i.e. in terms of inches of development) they are all distinct, and that’s what’s important.
26 gears?

I'm guessing you have a 12 speed 10-33 cassette, so you start with 24 total gears, not 26. There are 3 nearly identical gear ratios (0.6%, 1.1%, and 2.1% diff) and 3 darn close gear ratios (2.8%, 2.9%, and 3.3% diff). So, unless you want to do some painful double shifting across multiple gears to access them, you really have 16 useable gears in the best case scenario.

From highest to lowest, they are:
48/10, 48/11, 48/12, 48/13, 48/14, 48/15, 48/17, 35/13, 35/14, 35/15, 35/17, 35/19, 35/21, 35/24, 35/28, 35/33

Originally Posted by chaadster
Sure, a couple of the gears are very close— in terms of gear inches, only 2 ratios are “the same” w/ 35c (or 25c, for that matter) and none are the same w/ 42c— but that’s entirely the point of having many gears, the ability to fine tune gear selection to maximize the rider’s effort.
Gear ratios don't change with tire width. If two gear ratios are the same with 35c tires, they're the same with 42c tires.
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Old 01-19-22, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
26 gears?

I'm guessing you have a 12 speed 10-33 cassette, so you start with 24 total gears, not 26. There are 3 nearly identical gear ratios (0.6%, 1.1%, and 2.1% diff) and 3 darn close gear ratios (2.8%, 2.9%, and 3.3% diff). So, unless you want to do some painful double shifting across multiple gears to access them, you really have 16 useable gears in the best case scenario.

From highest to lowest, they are:
48/10, 48/11, 48/12, 48/13, 48/14, 48/15, 48/17, 35/13, 35/14, 35/15, 35/17, 35/19, 35/21, 35/24, 35/28, 35/33

Gear ratios don't change with tire width. If two gear ratios are the same with 35c tires, they're the same with 42c tires.
Yeah, of course 24 gears, as there is no 2x13 drivetrain out yet. And yes, all SRAM Force AXS drivetrain are 12spd. Plug in those 48/35 crankset and 10-33 12spd cassette numbers into the Sheldon Brown or BerkshireSports gear ratio calculator you prefer and you’ll find none of the gear combos actually move the bike the same distance per revolution (i.e. in terms of inches of development with either 35c or 42c rubber) they are all distinct, and as I’ve been saying, that’s what’s important for riders seeking to optimize their output.
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Old 01-19-22, 09:05 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Yeah, of course 24 gears, as there is no 2x13 drivetrain out yet. And yes, all SRAM Force AXS drivetrain are 12spd. Plug in those 48/35 crankset and 10-33 12spd cassette numbers into the Sheldon Brown or BerkshireSports gear ratio calculator you prefer and you’ll find none of the gear combos actually move the bike the same distance per revolution (i.e. in terms of inches of development with either 35c or 42c rubber) they are all distinct, and as I’ve been saying, that’s what’s important for riders seeking to optimize their output.
Yeah, technically speaking, the gear ratios are all different. But the difference between the 48/15 and the 35/11, for instance, is only 0.6%. For all practical purposes, those gear ratios are the same. To argue otherwise is silly.
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Old 01-19-22, 09:52 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Yeah, technically speaking, the gear ratios are all different. But the difference between the 48/15 and the 35/11, for instance, is only 0.6%. For all practical purposes, those gear ratios are the same. To argue otherwise is silly.
The 48/15 is smack in the middle of the cassette, perfect for heavy use, whereas the 35/11 is next to last on the cassette on the small ring, which is perhaps handy if I were to have one of those fits like the 1x guys have where they can’t figure out how to use the front derailleur, but more likely, it’s useful in short, sharp rollers or when a climb briefly flattens out before pitching upwards again. I don’t think I use 35/11 much myself, but scrapping all the benefits of the 11 other gears to get rid of a the so-called “duplicate” 35/11 makes zero sense for how I ride.
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Old 01-19-22, 11:58 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
The 48/15 is smack in the middle of the cassette, perfect for heavy use, whereas the 35/11 is next to last on the cassette on the small ring, which is perhaps handy if I were to have one of those fits like the 1x guys have where they can’t figure out how to use the front derailleur, but more likely, it’s useful in short, sharp rollers or when a climb briefly flattens out before pitching upwards again. I don’t think I use 35/11 much myself, but scrapping all the benefits of the 11 other gears to get rid of a the so-called “duplicate” 35/11 makes zero sense for how I ride.
The point is, the 35/11 isn't the only duplicate gear in your setup. There are several duplicate gears, which is why you effectively have only 15 or 16 different gear ratios. The only way to get (close to) 24 useful gear ratios from a 2x12 setup would be with some form of half-step gearing.
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Old 01-20-22, 12:50 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
The point is, the 35/11 isn't the only duplicate gear in your setup. There are several duplicate gears, which is why you effectively have only 15 or 16 different gear ratios. The only way to get (close to) 24 useful gear ratios from a 2x12 setup would be with some form of half-step gearing.
No, there are not several “duplicate” gears…we covered that already. There are closely spaced ratios in two ranges which is exactly why it’s better for riders seeking to optimize their output than 1x systems.
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Old 01-20-22, 01:02 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
No, there are not several “duplicate” gears…we covered that already. There are closely spaced ratios in two ranges which is exactly why it’s better for riders seeking to optimize their output than 1x systems.
Do we really have to go through the math for every gear ratio? How about the 48/19 and 35/14? They differ by 1%. So, if you're in the 48/19 at 90 RPM and you shift to the 35/14, your cadence will increase to (almost) 91 RPM. Are you honestly going to argue that there is a significant difference between those two gears?
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Old 01-20-22, 02:27 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Do we really have to go through the math for every gear ratio? How about the 48/19 and 35/14? They differ by 1%. So, if you're in the 48/19 at 90 RPM and you shift to the 35/14, your cadence will increase to (almost) 91 RPM. Are you honestly going to argue that there is a significant difference between those two gears?
Serious question: have you ever ridden a 2x? Because that’s now how shifting works…or at least that’s now how competent riders shift.

I used to think it was funny when 1x guys would say how using the FD was such a burden and hard thing to do, but this conversation has me thinking that maybe there is a real problem at the root there with understanding mechanical systems.

Similar gears in different ranges are almost irrelevant, because for optimized output, you want the same close ratios in each range. Efficient shifting and optimized output are not achieved by jumping between ranges looking for what you call “significantly different” gears. That’s exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. Rather you should be reading the terrain, assessing your ability, and selecting the gear range which allows you quick access to the ratios which allow you to make the most speed for what you can output across that terrain.

Maybe you don’t do performance road riding, but that’s how it works, it’s why you want as many closely spaced gears as possible given the terrain, and why having the same (or very nearly the same) gear ratios in at some point in each range is essentially both inevitable and irrelevant vis a vis the consideration of 1x as an alternative.

I have 3 1x bikes, and not a ride goes by when I don’t want for more gears. Ditto any of my 2x bikes. My dream is infinitely variable gearing, so until then, the more gears the better, particularly in a couple of ranges so that I don’t have to wait forever between shifts to guide a chain up and down something silly like a 20spd cogset.

The Classified hub is something which makes 1x look feasible for me for road riding, but I can’t lie; the first time I saw it I wondered could it work with a fron derailleur for 4 gear ranges!

Last edited by chaadster; 01-20-22 at 02:30 AM.
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Old 01-20-22, 06:29 AM
  #59  
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The way I ride a 2x (40+ years experience, just so we don't have to question "ability" to shift a FD) is to use the small ring for only about the first 3 or 4 lowest gears and then go on the big ring for everything higher. I might stay on the small ring up to mid-cassette if I know it's going to get steeper again, but that's about it. I tend to stay on the big ring down to the second lowest gear, so I do use a lot more of the overlap there. So those near "duplicate" gears have a practical use, but they don't give you any more actual ratios vs a 1x setup. This is what tomato is getting at.

The way I ride 1x (on all my mtbs for the last 6 years) is by moving up and down the cassette as needed, LOL

The problem I have with 2x is that my local roads are full of steep dips and rises which require a s*** load of FD changes. It's the worst scenario for a multi-chainring setup and a constant reminder of why 2x was consigned to history in the mtb world.

1x13 pretty much solves this issue for me, at a very small cost in the number of useful ratios. I effectively give up maybe 2 ratios at most for the same overall range. Ekar cleverly gives up those ratios at the very low end of the cassette, where it doesn't matter much anyway. The larger gaps there feel more natural anyway, as they do on a mtb setup. Ekar actually has much closer ratios at the higher end of the cassette than a compact, wide range 2x11

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Old 01-20-22, 06:55 AM
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On hills of 3-4 minute duration and under 13%, I use big-big ( could be 56x32 or 50 x 36 depending on bike). On extended climbs of at least 8%, I shift to the small ring. My 2x setups have at least 16 or 17 usable gears. To get the same tight gearing on the small cogs and a similar range on a 1x12 isn't possible but it would be close enough with 1x13. I never shift back and forth on the FD as one would in the old days with half step gearing. I use the entire cassette with the big ring and then only shift to the small ring for very steep or very long hills. 2x works for me. 1x13 might convert me.

I can't see SRAM or Shimano getting to 1x13 on road bikes anytime soon. Maybe 2024
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Old 01-20-22, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
This... almost has no response...but it wouldn't be the internet if I didn't try:
1. Who cares. I do not want wireless nor 12 speed.
2. uh - they have a wireless front end with a wired rear on the latest groups - which is a marked improvement over a wireless system. The battery running their system is way beyond what SRAM has been doing and delivers amazing performance at both derailleurs.
3. This is like saying, "Oh yeah? They don't have the bad features that you hate so they aren't as good."


This is incorrect. They specifically are keeping the R9000 levers on hand and making them compatible with the new generation wires so that those who want mechanical brakes/rim brakes still have an option. Again though, like above, this is a door that should have been shut though. I love rim brakes as much as the next guy but somewhere there's a car enthusiast who still loves mechanical drum brakes I'm sure.

As a professional mechanic I can assure you that SRAM is much worse than Shimano at front shifting. They have greatly improved their front shifting over the years. eTap has taken it even much further in performance. It has brought them to "almost" as good as Shimano front shifting is at it's worst. Agreed that most people are clueless when it comes to setting up a front derailleur properly. Eliminating that as a variable SRAM is worse.
Much of what you wrote is factually incorrect, but you're the professional.

I have the last three generations of SRAM Red (12, 11, and 11 mechanical) and the FD is perfect for me but maybe you are clueless on their setup as you are clearly a Shimano fanboy. The eTap are very good to the point of faultless. I cannot remember a missed shift in many, many tens of thousands of miles.

Shimano battery is better? Are you joking? It is massive with wires. Wires. OTOH, the SRAM is easy on and off with no wires. Shimano's "wireless" is kludgy at best. Shimano's "wireless" rim brake system is a joke and the key reason I stuck with SRAM.
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Old 01-20-22, 08:02 AM
  #62  
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Well getting back more on topic, SRAM, like Shimano, appear to be more cognizant of cyclists needs than a lot of cyclists are, and both offer automatic FD shifting solutions for electronic groupsets— Sequential and Synchro, respectively— for those who, uh, “prefer” not to think about how gearing works.

Assuming the introduction of Rival AXS and their recent acquisition of Hammerhead signal deep commitment to electronic shifting, taken together with Sequential automatic shifting, there seems to me to be no incentive to hamstring road groupset capability with 1x even once they move to 13spd cassettes. Further, since the 13spd fits in the same space as 12spd and all 12spd road is AXS, they could economize production and supply chains by simply firmware-updating shifters and derailleurs, discontinuing 12spd cassettes, and moving all AXS users to 13spd (i.e. when their 12spd cassette needs replaced).
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Old 01-20-22, 12:29 PM
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The most practical way to use axs 12 speed is to stay in the big chain ring as long as possible, then shift to the little ring and usually two sprockets smaller to continue the progression to lower gears for climbing. If you do that there are really only 15 distinctly different gear ratios. The rest are duplicates or near duplicates, so you have 15 easy to find gear ratios. It really doesn't matter is the big/big is used or not. I may use it briefly, but I'm more likely to get out of the saddle instead. As an example, my 48/28 is a 1.71/1 ratio. If I shift to the 31T little ring, I then shift to the 21 and have the next lowest ratio of 1.47, plus 3 lower ratios. My lowest ratio in the big ring is a 48/33 which is just a near duplicate of 31/21.

Roller coaster roads are always a pain. I have none of that, so I may make a chainring shift only 4 times on a 50 mile ride. I never use sram sequential or compensating modes. IMO, they're for beginners or riders who don't want to learn simple shift patterns. I limit my shifts to only two if I hold a shifter lever for a multishift.

Another thing I do quite often is start a climb standing in the big ring then sit and shift to the little ring with no compensating shifts required. In my experience, pedaling standing gives me about the same amount of extra torque as a two sprocket down shift.

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Old 01-20-22, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
If you do that there are really only 15 distinctly different gear ratios.
This is ultimately the bottom line. So when considering 2x12 vs 1x13 it essentially comes down to whether or not you can ride with 2 less gears vs your tolerance to repeated front shifts if your riding terrain demands it. 2x works well if you are riding mostly on flat or consistent gradients with the odd isolated steep climb. But 1x works better on constantly changing terrain that would require loads of front shifting with a 2x. My local roads are very much the latter, which is why I'm pro 1x13 as a viable alternative to a compact 2x.
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Old 01-21-22, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski View Post
This is ultimately the bottom line. So when considering 2x12 vs 1x13 it essentially comes down to whether or not you can ride with 2 less gears vs your tolerance to repeated front shifts if your riding terrain demands it. 2x works well if you are riding mostly on flat or consistent gradients with the odd isolated steep climb. But 1x works better on constantly changing terrain that would require loads of front shifting with a 2x. My local roads are very much the latter, which is why I'm pro 1x13 as a viable alternative to a compact 2x.
I think it more comes down to how one rides, particularly whether one can dictate their own pace (e.g. solo riding) or has to keep up in a fast, competitive group.
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