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Peugeot PGN10 + Campagnolo Front Derailleur?

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Peugeot PGN10 + Campagnolo Front Derailleur?

Old 07-28-22, 09:53 AM
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MRich1104
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Peugeot PGN10 + Campagnolo Front Derailleur?

First post here on Bike Forums, but I have learned a lot from the countless discussions I've read over the past few months. This seems like a great community!


My brother and I are restoring a 1984 Peugeot PGN10, which he found discarded behind a building at his work. A previous owner switched the rear derailleur for a Campagnolo Nuovo Record which we plan to keep (but need to find jockey wheels). The front derailleur is a broken Simplex (likely original) attached via braze-on. We want to match the RD with a Campy NR front derailleur, but it seems that the braze-on fitting is in a different orientation on the Simplex vs any of the Campy's we've seen on eBay. The threads in the frame are on the lateral axis; whereas, all the braze-on Nuovo Records I've seen on eBay require threads through the frame on the longitudinal axis. Should we just get a clamp-on NR? I'd prefer a solution that doesn't leave the bike looking unfinished with an empty braze-on. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!

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Old 07-28-22, 10:23 AM
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Simplex Braze-On Front Derailleur

The braze-on front derailleur mount on you bike was peculiar to Simplex in the early 80's. I think that Huret also made some FDs to fit that style of mount.



They were never popular and never went mainstream. Peugeot and Gitane were probably the only bike makers that used that style and only from about 1982-84.



If you want to "keep it clean" you're stuck with a Simplex FD....

Is it wrong, or just French?

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Old 07-28-22, 10:34 AM
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"Is it wrong, or just French?" Haha! That question pretty much sums up my experience with this bike so far. Especially when I figured out what was going on with the Helicomatic freewheel (trying to keep that too). Thank you for the quick and exhaustive explanation not without pictures! Do you think the existing braze-on will interfere with a clamp-on nuovo record?
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Old 07-28-22, 03:20 PM
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Yeah, the Simplex front derailleur braze-on is incompatible with anything else. You can find the derailleurs on eBay every so often. Maybe try ebay.fr to get closer to the source?

The good news is that if you find one, they're actually a good performing derailleur.

If you choose your chainring sizes carefully, you may be able to mount a Campagnolo front derailleur above or below the braze-on, but chances are, it's going to be in the way for common chainring sizes.
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Old 07-28-22, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MRich1104
The threads in the frame are on the lateral axis; whereas, all the braze-on Nuovo Records I've seen on eBay require threads through the frame on the longitudinal axis.
Any hope for fabbing an adapter? I don't have any bikes new enough from braze-on. My first thought was cannibalize the dead Simplex and chop it up to use the "base" for attaching a Campy; otherwise a chunk of angle aluminum?
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Old 07-28-22, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson
Yeah, the Simplex front derailleur braze-on is incompatible with anything else. You can find the derailleurs on eBay every so often. Maybe try ebay.fr to get closer to the source?


The good news is that if you find one, they're actually a good performing derailleur.


If you choose your chainring sizes carefully, you may be able to mount a Campagnolo front derailleur above or below the braze-on, but chances are, it's going to be in the way for common chainring sizes.

Hmm, it's good to hear that the Simplex FD is a reliable mechanism. I've read claims that issues with a helicomatic freewheel were solved by switching out stock simplex derailleurs for other models. Info about the helicomatic freewheel is hard to find at all; do you have any experience with 'em? Thanks for your advice!


Originally Posted by tiger1964
Any hope for fabbing an adapter? I don't have any bikes new enough from braze-on. My first thought was cannibalize the dead Simplex and chop it up to use the "base" for attaching a Campy; otherwise a chunk of angle aluminum?

I think this goes beyond my skillset in metal-working!
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Old 07-29-22, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by MRich1104
Info about the helicomatic freewheel is hard to find at all; do you have any experience with 'em?
The Helicomatic Museum is probably the best source of information about the hubs and freewheels.
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Old 07-29-22, 08:18 AM
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Also, check Gipiemme front derailleurs. Many of their early models are Simplex based and use the same brazed-on mount.
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Old 07-29-22, 08:20 AM
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With those hubs, the freewheel needs regular maintenance, more than the average freewheels. They can gunk up and the prawls won't catch leaving you with no pedaling power. Fortunately they are quick to remove for service. I'm not sure if the design was spoke friendly. I tend to stay away from rebuilding those wheelsets.
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Old 07-29-22, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
The braze-on front derailleur mount on you bike was peculiar to Simplex in the early 80's. I think that Huret also made some FDs to fit that style of mount.

They were never popular and never went mainstream. Peugeot and Gitane were probably the only bike makers that used that style and only from about 1982-84.

If you want to "keep it clean" you're stuck with a Simplex FD....
You'll also find them on some Italian bicycles of this era, notably Battaglin. After winning the Vuelta and Giro in 1981, Battaglin set up his own bicycle company and persuaded his team to switch bicycles from Pinarello to his eponymous brand. They took on Gipiemme for their component sponsor. Consequently the team bicycles used this braze-on, as did most models in the Battaglin line. There were several models that were Simplex/Gipiemme compatible but only one token model with a Campagnolo braze-on. Framesets sold in the USA through Italia Velo Sport came with the front derailleur, due to the compatibilty issue.



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Old 07-29-22, 04:33 PM
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Gipiemme Badged Simplex Derailleurs

Originally Posted by T-Mar
You'll also find them on some Italian bicycles of this era, notably Battaglin. After winning the Vuelta and Giro in 1981, Battaglin set up his own bicycle company and persuaded his team to switch bicycles from Pinarello to his eponymous brand. They took on Gipiemme for their component sponsor. Consequently the team bicycles used this braze-on, as did most models in the Battaglin line. There were several models that were Simplex/Gipiemme compatible but only one token model with a Campagnolo braze-on. Framesets sold in the USA through Italia Velo Sport came with the front derailleur, due to the compatibilty issue.


I wasn't aware that anyone but French makers used the Simplex braze-on FD system???

Simplex braze-on FDs first shown in the 1981 Simplex catalog, I always considered these to be part of the short lived Aero Fad of the early 80's. I have or had a number of French bikes from Peugeot, Gitane and Motobecane that used these FDs. They work OK but I never considered braze-on FDs of any benefit especially when changing front gearing on a classic bike.


Braze-on mount for Simplex FDs.



Simplex made Gipiemme badged derailleurs from the late 70's through the mid 80's. This is what came with a Battaglin frame or bike shown above: Gipiemme/Simplex SJ A222 or SLJ A422 braze-on FD.



Simplex also produced derailleurs with the French Spidel consortium marque, the Swiss EDCO brand plus Peugeot and derailleurs for Motobecane with their M logo on the self adhesive thick aluminum stickers.



So, MRich1104 your best FD solution is to find a Simplex braze-on front derailleur. There's a number of these on eBay but the sellers are pretty proud of them....

If you want to switch to a standard band style clamp FD you may have to remove the braze-on in the seat tube because it may get in the way of the clamp. You'll have to check it out. The easiest way is to grind it down with a Dremel tool.



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Old 07-29-22, 04:45 PM
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What was the marketing angle for these FD’s, slight weight savings? A more clean look?

I can’t think of any other reason.
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Old 07-29-22, 06:00 PM
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1980's Aero Fad

Originally Posted by polymorphself
What was the marketing angle for these FD’s, slight weight savings? A more clean look?

I can’t think of any other reason.
What was the marketing angle for the Aero Fad components in the early 80's? ... To sell more bikes equipped with those components, maybe???

The FIRST thing taught in Marktetroid 101: P.T. Barnum's ethos - "There is a sucker born every minute"... (questionable whether he actually said that)



Also: “Advertising is to a genuine article what manure is to land, - it largely increases the product.”

2nd paradigm: NEW = cheaper to make, more profitable to sell and... more in demand by fad followers listed above!

Simplex and Huret had a long tradition of making products with proprietary features in their provincial attempt to get and keep a larger proportion of the French bicycle component market (in France - there was no "rest of the world") A good example of this was their dropouts with proprietary derailleur hangers. If you bought a bike or frame with a Huret derailleur and their dropouts, you would have to come back to Huret for a replacement rear derailleur or so they thought. Same with Simplex.

Many French towns and cities had "constructeurs" who custom built frames for their customers - think Rene Herse and Sanger. Those custom bikes were expensive but the owners expected to get many years use out of them. When someone ordered a new bike they had to specify the brand of derailleurs that they wanted and the appropriate dropouts were used: Simplex, Huret or Campagnolo. In France, Gitane made their French market Tour de France models with either Simplex of Huret dropouts to match the derailleurs to be used on those bikes.

The Huret honeycomb or spider web drop outs introduced in 1974 allowed Gitane to use pretty much any brand of derailleur they wanted as they fit all 3 types of mounting.

This fantasy world of proprietary dropouts existed in France into the mid 70's when Simplex and Huret finally realized that they had been past by because Suntour and Shimano adopted the industry de facto standard Campagnolo style derailleur hangers.

By the late 70's most better quality bikes and frames came with braze-ons for everything. I always thought that the Campagnolo style braze-on was a poorly thought out design if for no other reason than they attached to the down tube in the area where the butted section of the seat tube transitions to the thinnest wall thickness. One logical reason for the helically reinforced SLX seat tubes was the increased the tube strength where the FD brazed-on attaches.

Those Campy style braze-ons are cantilevered off of the seat tube at that point and I've seen and heard tell of a lot of failures in that area?

When I saw the Simplex style mounts on a 1982 Motobecane Team Champion I acquired I thought that it was maybe another one of Lucien Juy's (the Simplex founder) brilliant ideas. After setting a few of these FDs I up I came to realize that they were a better idea than the Campy style attachment because there's solid contact between the FD body and the seat tube.

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Old 07-30-22, 05:12 AM
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FYI.......
Mavic also issued an FD with a French style front braze on mount.
It was their 801 and SSC derailleur sets that had an optional body pivot the slot to use with the French mount.
Unfortunately though, the slot on the Mavic FD does not quite match up to where Peugeot located their FD mounting boss on their bikes so the Mavic FD end up a little bit to high, away from the top of the chainrings and clocked slight to the left.
I was still able to make the Mavic 801 FD work on my 84 Peugeot PSV with some "creative" slight reshaping of the FD cage and by mounting it as low as possible on its slot.
Never could figure out why Mavic and Simplex did not coordinate their designs for the French style brazed on FD's......

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Old 07-30-22, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MRich1104
First post here on Bike Forums, but I have learned a lot from the countless discussions I've read over the past few months. This seems like a great community!


My brother and I are restoring a 1984 Peugeot PGN10, which he found discarded behind a building at his work. A previous owner switched the rear derailleur for a Campagnolo Nuovo Record which we plan to keep (but need to find jockey wheels). The front derailleur is a broken Simplex (likely original) attached via braze-on. We want to match the RD with a Campy NR front derailleur, but it seems that the braze-on fitting is in a different orientation on the Simplex vs any of the Campy's we've seen on eBay. The threads in the frame are on the lateral axis; whereas, all the braze-on Nuovo Records I've seen on eBay require threads through the frame on the longitudinal axis. Should we just get a clamp-on NR? I'd prefer a solution that doesn't leave the bike looking unfinished with an empty braze-on. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!
Hiya ,
I have a couple of those front mechs in the "spares" box .
If you decide to stay original let me know .
More than happy to move one on for the cost of shipping .
Keep in mind I am a fair old way from you though
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Old 07-31-22, 12:15 AM
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Mavic French Mount FDs

Originally Posted by Chombi1
FYI.......
Mavic also issued an FD with a French style front braze on mount.
It was their 801 and SSC derailleur sets that had an optional body pivot the slot to use with the French mount.
Unfortunately though, the slot on the Mavic FD does not quite match up to where Peugeot located their FD mounting boss on their bikes so the Mavic FD end up a little bit to high, away from the top of the chainrings and clocked slight to the left.
I was still able to make the Mavic 801 FD work on my 84 Peugeot PSV with some "creative" slight reshaping of the FD cage and by mounting it as low as possible on its slot.
Never could figure out why Mavic and Simplex did not coordinate their designs for the French style brazed on FD's......
The Mavic 81x series of Front Derailleurs came in 3 styles:
810 - Clamp on band
811 - Simplex style braze-on
812 - Campy style braze-on

Mavic 811 French Style Braze-on




Simplex SLJ A 423 on my 1982 Motobecane Team Champion. I use 49T or 50T large chainrings on most of my bikes. I've had to file the slots in these FDs to get the cage low enough to work with those smaller rings.



Unlike Rear Derailleurs with varying levels of performance, from the 1950's - 60's on most Front Derailleurs work acceptably well with very little fine tuning.

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Old 08-01-22, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
I wasn't aware that anyone but French makers used the Simplex braze-on FD system???

Simplex braze-on FDs first shown in the 1981 Simplex catalog, I always considered these to be part of the short lived Aero Fad of the early 80's. I have or had a number of French bikes from Peugeot, Gitane and Motobecane that used these FDs. They work OK but I never considered braze-on FDs of any benefit especially when changing front gearing on a classic bike.


Braze-on mount for Simplex FDs.



Simplex made Gipiemme badged derailleurs from the late 70's through the mid 80's. This is what came with a Battaglin frame or bike shown above: Gipiemme/Simplex SJ A222 or SLJ A422 braze-on FD.



Simplex also produced derailleurs with the French Spidel consortium marque, the Swiss EDCO brand plus Peugeot and derailleurs for Motobecane with their M logo on the self adhesive thick aluminum stickers.



So, MRich1104 your best FD solution is to find a Simplex braze-on front derailleur. There's a number of these on eBay but the sellers are pretty proud of them....

If you want to switch to a standard band style clamp FD you may have to remove the braze-on in the seat tube because it may get in the way of the clamp. You'll have to check it out. The easiest way is to grind it down with a Dremel tool.



verktyg
Yes, I think my best option is to find a simplex since I would rather not have to remove any material from the frame. Thank you for all your advice and help! I am glad my question lead to such an in depth discussion of yet another short-lived French quirk!
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