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It feels unsafe and borderline reckless to ride in actual traffic where there is no s

Old 08-13-22, 08:22 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Whenever I hear someone say that they "feel" safer riding salmon, I ask them how many collisions they have had.

The answer is invariably non-zero.

Ride where drivers are looking, be predictable, & command their attention.
The only cyclist I ever collided with was riding salmon. I had near miss with another salmon rider. It both happened in a blind corner.

Makes me fear blind corners due to these morons.
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Old 08-13-22, 08:29 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Nothing but broken pavement patched over a million times with terribly inconsistent shoulders with huge potholes everywhere and traffic buzzing by at 50-70 mph.
Dangerous in the wet. Also dangerous if you see such bad roads on steep mountain descents wet or dry, unless you have wide tires.

I have once caught my front wheel between a small gap in the badly repaired road section in a fast descent. Nearly fell but got things under control. Scariest thing. The reason I avoid going faster than 35 mph on descents anymore. It's easier / safer to swerve around bad stuff on the road if slower.
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Old 08-14-22, 04:04 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
Dangerous in the wet. Also dangerous if you see such bad roads on steep mountain descents wet or dry, unless you have wide tires.

I have once caught my front wheel between a small gap in the badly repaired road section in a fast descent. Nearly fell but got things under control. Scariest thing. The reason I avoid going faster than 35 mph on descents anymore. It's easier / safer to swerve around bad stuff on the road if slower.
You never know.

My front wheel pretzeled in a crack coming down off Big Bear in LA. I was leaning into a sweeper around 45 mph. Just some ruined kit and a bit of road rash as I slide for seemingly forever on concrete. OTOH, I hit some storm debris at 20 mph earning a trip to the trauma center and a long recovery. I also keep speeds down generally also to 35 mph, this is easy on my upright bike but can be a challenge on my much more aerodynamic recumbent where I have seen speeds over 60 mph with some tailwind and a long hill in Brittany France.

I have a hill that I descend early in almost every ride. The speed limit is 35 mph and then 25 mph. I take the lane. On my bent, I am usually doing 40mph and on my upright around 32 mph on the aero bars. I can't tell you how many times a car passes me in the no passing zone that has a 25 mph speed limit just before a curve, and they almost crash. I'm doing 35-40 mph exceeding the limit of 25 and cagers pass me. The real fun is when a car comes around the corner the other direction and the moron cager has to decide to accept a head on or potentially take me out. Learning how to stop fast is an important skill. Fortunately in a bent, endo is impossible so I can grab the brakes as hard as I can
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Old 08-14-22, 07:28 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
You never know.

My front wheel pretzeled in a crack coming down off Big Bear in LA. I was leaning into a sweeper around 45 mph. Just some ruined kit and a bit of road rash as I slide for seemingly forever on concrete. OTOH, I hit some storm debris at 20 mph earning a trip to the trauma center and a long recovery. I also keep speeds down generally also to 35 mph, this is easy on my upright bike but can be a challenge on my much more aerodynamic recumbent where I have seen speeds over 60 mph with some tailwind and a long hill in Brittany France.

I have a hill that I descend early in almost every ride. The speed limit is 35 mph and then 25 mph. I take the lane. On my bent, I am usually doing 40mph and on my upright around 32 mph on the aero bars. I can't tell you how many times a car passes me in the no passing zone that has a 25 mph speed limit just before a curve, and they almost crash. I'm doing 35-40 mph exceeding the limit of 25 and cagers pass me. The real fun is when a car comes around the corner the other direction and the moron cager has to decide to accept a head on or potentially take me out. Learning how to stop fast is an important skill. Fortunately in a bent, endo is impossible so I can grab the brakes as hard as I can
I agree recumbents can be safer because they're low, you can brake more aggressively with less risk of losing stability or endo. And a fall from a recumbent being lower is less likely to break a bone.

Cagers are stupid when dealing with bikes. They even try to pass you coming to a traffic light on red which achieves absolutely nothing, expect only prove their stupidity.

Not saying there are no stupid cyclists. There are those who ride at night wearing black kit and no lights. I'd think they might have a death wish but turns out, a lot of cyclist do it! and of course, those who ride against the traffic. I still drive, so you can only imagine at night when I'm turning to the right on an intersection with bike lane. Against the glare of bright lights behind me, it's almost impossible to see a cyclist on the bike lane on my rear view mirror against that glare unless they're using front light. Fortunately, I have just a few more brain cells to spot "camouflaged" cyclist at night by looking at shadows / reflections on the road. And then I also have to make another hard glance on the bike lane in front of me for any cyclist stupid enough to ride against the traffic without any light at night.. Unfortunately, it happens far more often than I find tolerable which is zero.

Last edited by koala logs; 08-14-22 at 08:13 AM.
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Old 08-14-22, 02:42 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Aren't you the one describing how few cars were on this road? And it sounds like it's also too narrow for the few cars who do use it.

So in the spirit of motorists who criticize bike lanes that have so few cyclists on them, we can make that narrow road more safe for users who can use them.

Great, now explain that to the people who live on that road and wouldn't be able to use their cars for any practical purpose. You close an urban street to motor vehicles, it might mean that people need to walk a couple blocks to their cars, you do that to a rural road, you probably put those vehicles miles away from the residents.

You're in way over your head.
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Old 08-14-22, 02:50 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
So it sounds like very few cars use this road. Why not make it a car-free zone? Parents can pick up their kids by bike.
One of the dumbest suggestions I ever heard on bikeforums.
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Old 08-14-22, 04:21 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
How would farmers get to the fields? Residents have to go to work in the morning and come home, too.

I doubt 1 in a 100 parents or children would be able to ride the average 5 miles and 300-400 vertical feet.

It would be nice in an alternative Universe So, that is my response to your question.
How far away is the nearest grocery for that matter?

If they made that road bike-only, I'd never ride on it because everyone living on the road is going to be furious at any cyclists who happen to ride through.
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Old 08-15-22, 09:23 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Find a line where you are highly visible to drivers behind you, and stick to it. If you're diverging from it to the left, signal before you do so.

As a cyclist, I am not an obstacle. I am operating a slower moving vehicle on the road, As a driver, I am required to accommodate differences in speeds between vehicles all the time, and the statutes are very specific in my state that the burden of avoiding the cyclist is on the driver, and not on the cyclist to stay and get out of the way.

It is not unsafe and it's definitely not "borderline reckless" to ride in actual traffic. It's perfectly legal expected activity and like anything else legal done on roads, it can be done well or it can be done dangerously.

Drivers are required to slow down if they can't safely pass, if they don't do so, they are creating the danger, not me.
While it is a legal activity, to many motorists it is also an "unexpected activity." Those motorists do not understand why bicycles are on "their roads." Entitled motorists fail to understand that public roads are for all users, not just car and truck drivers.
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Old 08-15-22, 10:53 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
While it is a legal activity, to many motorists it is also an "unexpected activity." Those motorists do not understand why bicycles are on "their roads." Entitled motorists fail to understand that public roads are for all users, not just car and truck drivers.
...And that is a result of car culture & poor policy run amok.

Early last week, I took my dog for a walk. I approached a midblock crosswalk, of a 2 lane road. I stopped, checked for traffic & seeing that it was clear with a SUV a block away (-ish) in a 30mph zone, I proceeded to cross the street. I cleared the first lane with the SUV & was half way through the other opposing lane & the lady in the SUV slammed on her brakes to yell at me for being a pedestrian.

I was so stunned at this non-issue of imagined transgression all I could think of in response was: "It's a crosswalk, dummy!" As she shook her head and sped away.

Yesterday, my able-bodied mother & her fat, diabetic, able-bodied husband invited my family out for lunch & drinks at a restaurant 6 blocks away. My family couldn't convince them to walk the 6 blocks to the restaurant. They insisted we drive because it was "too far." So, the 5 of us uncomfortably crammed ourselves into their unlicensed 25 year-old, dilapidated Camry. On the return trip, her husband complained how dangerous it was to leave the restaurant via the left turn across a 7 lane 50mph arterial. So I gave directions through their own neighborhood low traffic 25mph side streets involving only safe right turns & a stoplight signaled left turn.

We need change.
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
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Old 08-15-22, 12:53 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Yesterday, my able-bodied mother & her fat, diabetic, able-bodied husband invited my family out for lunch & drinks at a restaurant 6 blocks away. My family couldn't convince them to walk the 6 blocks to the restaurant. They insisted we drive because it was "too far." So, the 5 of us uncomfortably crammed ourselves into their unlicensed 25 year-old, dilapidated Camry. On the return trip, her husband complained how dangerous it was to leave the restaurant via the left turn across a 7 lane 50mph arterial. So I gave directions through their own neighborhood low traffic 25mph side streets involving only safe right turns & a stoplight signaled left turn.

We need change.
I suspect your step-father said the same thing to his wife about invitations for dining guests.
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Old 08-15-22, 01:15 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I suspect your step-father said the same thing to his wife about invitations for dining guests.

I can't tell if that's supposed to be an insult or if you're having a stroke.
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Old 08-15-22, 02:40 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
While it is a legal activity, to many motorists it is also an "unexpected activity." ….
The solution is what many BF participants do: ride predictably, conspicuously and often. That converts the unexpected into the expected.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to ride to the grocery store.
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Old 08-15-22, 03:14 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by flangehead View Post
The solution is what many BF participants do: ride predictably, conspicuously and often. That converts the unexpected into the expected.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I need to ride to the grocery store.
While I agree with you in use and principle... the reality is, that to many drivers, cyclists are not "expected" on the roadway... and this is easily observed by how drivers often fail when they do not "act and treat cyclists as drivers of vehicles."

I have even been chastised as a motorist, by another motorist, for giving a cyclist the room they needed on a crowded road. It was a minor inconvenience for me, all I did was lift my foot off the accelerator to give the cyclist some room. The offending motorist drove beside me, honked, flipped me off, and then yelled, "get off the road." I thought it was both hilarious and stupid. I was merely letting the cyclist cross from a bike lane, across an on ramp, into a bike lane. Took all of seconds. But hey... it was "offensive" to that other motorist.

If every road user just co-operated, vice acting like they "own the road..." we'd all get along better... smoother lane changes, smoother traffic flow, room for all users and maybe even the "expectation" that we all are just trying to get somewhere too.
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Old 08-15-22, 07:36 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I can't tell if that's supposed to be an insult or if you're having a stroke.
I just assume it has to be intended as a barb at someone.
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Old 08-15-22, 07:46 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
I don't know a single person that does this when a shoulder is available to ride on.
Now you do.
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Old 08-16-22, 05:46 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
While I agree with you in use and principle... the reality is, that to many drivers, cyclists are not "expected" on the roadway... and this is easily observed by how drivers often fail when they do not "act and treat cyclists as drivers of vehicles."

I have even been chastised as a motorist, by another motorist, for giving a cyclist the room they needed on a crowded road. It was a minor inconvenience for me, all I did was lift my foot off the accelerator to give the cyclist some room. The offending motorist drove beside me, honked, flipped me off, and then yelled, "get off the road." I thought it was both hilarious and stupid. I was merely letting the cyclist cross from a bike lane, across an on ramp, into a bike lane. Took all of seconds. But hey... it was "offensive" to that other motorist.

If every road user just co-operated, vice acting like they "own the road..." we'd all get along better... smoother lane changes, smoother traffic flow, room for all users and maybe even the "expectation" that we all are just trying to get somewhere too.

I think that's part of the problem, people are so afraid as drivers of being honked at that they don't follow basic rules about accommodation of slower vehicles. I don't see bicyclists retreating as any viable strategy to combat that. The laws are already generally on our side as cyclists, if we don't actually take advantage of that, further legal reform is worthless.
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Old 08-16-22, 05:48 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I just assume it has to be intended as a barb at someone.

It was, definitely. It was just incoherent. BTW, the guy who posted it is constantly whining about personal insults.
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Old 08-16-22, 07:39 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I think that's part of the problem, people are so afraid as drivers of being honked at that they don't follow basic rules about accommodation of slower vehicles. I don't see bicyclists retreating as any viable strategy to combat that. The laws are already generally on our side as cyclists, if we don't actually take advantage of that, further legal reform is worthless.
The real solution is better education of motorists... But of course that is the pipe dream. Currently the way motorists are taught is that flow has the highest priority, not road sharing, not courtesy, and certainly not "driving below the speed limit" when the situation requires it.

We have a society of entitled motorists that feel that the road is their's to abuse in any manner they choose, and to heck with everyone else.
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Old 08-16-22, 08:18 AM
  #119  
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When I'm driving my pickup, I love pissing other drivers off, and you don't have to go out of your way and do stupid stuff; all you have to do, besides just doing the speed limit, is to take your foot off the gas as the light turns yellow/red. It's like people want to race up to a stop Sometimes I wonder if they're even seeing anything 20ft ahead of their hood

It's incredible how many will go around you, hit the gas, only to stop at the light And then I just roll up slowly beside them




.
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Old 08-16-22, 11:13 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
When I'm driving my pickup, I love pissing other drivers off, and you don't have to go out of your way and do stupid stuff; all you have to do, besides just doing the speed limit, is to take your foot off the gas as the light turns yellow/red. It's like people want to race up to a stop Sometimes I wonder if they're even seeing anything 20ft ahead of their hood

It's incredible how many will go around you, hit the gas, only to stop at the light And then I just roll up slowly beside them




.
I do this on a bicycle too... In areas where the speed limit is something like 30MPH or less. Of course they race ahead of me from the green... but the reality is that their average speed is something less than the peak they get on the speedo... so they race to the red, I come cruising up, likely having coasted the last 25 yards or so. But there I am, right next to lead foot... At the red... Smiling. Waiting for the next green.

I have had than happen on 25MPH narrow residential streets... where leadfoot has to pass, crosses over the center to do so, swoops right in at the red light... has to stop, and I come cruising up on their right. Smiling. (thinking "just how many dinos died for your little stunt there bud?")
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Old 08-16-22, 11:45 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
The real solution is better education of motorists... But of course that is the pipe dream. Currently the way motorists are taught is that flow has the highest priority, not road sharing, not courtesy, and certainly not "driving below the speed limit" when the situation requires it.

We have a society of entitled motorists that feel that the road is their's to abuse in any manner they choose, and to heck with everyone else.
I've suggested for a long time not only to include bicycle road lessons to be with driving lessons but to remind drivers during licence renewals what to expect from cyclists and drivers' obligations and responsibilities when approaching vulnerable road users.
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Old 08-16-22, 11:50 AM
  #122  
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I want to address the salmon issue.

I'm a cyclist and a runner. I follow the established protocols for both activities, riding with traffic while doing the former and running against traffic while doing the latter. I'm a relatively new cyclist, but I'm a 35+ year suburban and NYC runner. I can't tell you how many times as a runner, I've had to freeze in my tracks when a car was making a right turn either didn't look to their right at all, rolled quickly through a stop sign or both. In nearly every instance, had I been cycling, even as slowly as 10mph (16kph), I would have been struck by a car.

Here in the suburbs, my bike club and all the other "spandex" people I know ride with traffic with helmets.

On a daily basis, I see teenagers riding salmon without helmets. I've witnessed 2 or 3 close calls and one instance where the car turned and the cyclist went up and over the hood, somehow lucky enough to land just about on his feet. But every time I see people doing it, I cringe.
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Old 08-16-22, 11:59 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
When I'm driving my pickup, I love pissing other drivers off, and you don't have to go out of your way and do stupid stuff; all you have to do, besides just doing the speed limit, is to take your foot off the gas as the light turns yellow/red. It's like people want to race up to a stop Sometimes I wonder if they're even seeing anything 20ft ahead of their hood

It's incredible how many will go around you, hit the gas, only to stop at the light And then I just roll up slowly beside them




.
I can't tell you how many times when driving, I manage to slow down on amber lights and make the full stop when it turns red while the driver next to me runs the red. Times like that I wish there were red light cameras.

And, also when driving and have to merge, I look for a pickup truck to butt in front of for the many times pickup trucks bully themselves in front of everybody else- and that includes them completely blocking your line of sight when you're waiting at an intersection or driveway trying to enter a street.
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Old 08-16-22, 12:35 PM
  #124  
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Many cyclists and pedestrians take safety precautions in their own way. Some dress and light themselves up like a christmas tree while others restrict themselves to trails.

However, regardless of what one does to minimize the risk of being struck by a driver, the ultimate determination does lie with what the driver does. Even if you get your bike off the road and wait on the sidewalk, drivers have been known to jump curbs and run over pedestrians.

A lot of people have been raving about the benefits of the Garmin bike radar, the Varia.

However, it seems to make just as much in not more sense for a car equivalent to alert drivers when there are cyclists and pedestrians ahead. Not only that, with gps technology, that device can and should alert drivers when they are exceeding the speed limit as well as approaching an object (like another car or cyclist) too quickly. We do not have the self-driving car yet but we certainly have the technology to alert drivers of dangerous situations.
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Old 08-16-22, 02:22 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Many cyclists and pedestrians take safety precautions in their own way. Some dress and light themselves up like a christmas tree while others restrict themselves to trails.

However, regardless of what one does to minimize the risk of being struck by a driver, the ultimate determination does lie with what the driver does. Even if you get your bike off the road and wait on the sidewalk, drivers have been known to jump curbs and run over pedestrians.

A lot of people have been raving about the benefits of the Garmin bike radar, the Varia.

However, it seems to make just as much in not more sense for a car equivalent to alert drivers when there are cyclists and pedestrians ahead. Not only that, with gps technology, that device can and should alert drivers when they are exceeding the speed limit as well as approaching an object (like another car or cyclist) too quickly. We do not have the self-driving car yet but we certainly have the technology to alert drivers of dangerous situations.
What you are talking about is a transponder. And if you think about it, Drivers will become reliant on the "fact" that cyclists and pedestrians have these, and will stop thinking for themselves. So the first time you go out with a low battery in your transponder... you get hit.

Now on the other hand, every driver out there has a big windshield, and is required to at least see out of one eye... and by law is required to NOT HIT THE THINGS IN FRONT OF YOU. One might think that would be sufficient.

But, sure, let's complicate things by adding transponders to ordinary humans so the smart cars can do what the dumb drivers won't do.

BTW as an aside... I like those blinkers that have a system that increases the blink rate as a motorist approaches... is that a Garmin Radar thing?
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