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It feels unsafe and borderline reckless to ride in actual traffic where there is no s

Old 08-08-22, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
It all depends on the area. A lot of cities wanted to be bike friendly so they slapped a lane in between parked cars and moving traffic. Probably the worst of all worlds. Motorists expect cyclists to stay in their lane but cyclists would have been a lot safer to just have a wide traffic lane and shared it with cars.

Newer suburbs that were designed with bike lanes and off street parking is a different environment.

John
True, and I absolutely agree that I'd rather have a 16' lane to share than a 12' lane with a 4' door zone trap. I grew up in Agoura where most of the main roads have a wide bike lane or a very wide shoulder. It felt safe. Now I live in the San Fernando Valley where there are tons of door zone bike lanes and, more recently, bike lanes in between the sidewalk and the parked cars (even worse!). But the fact remains - shared lane, bike lane, or shoulder - it depends on the attentiveness of the driver.
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Old 08-09-22, 04:46 AM
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I ride on a few roads that have heavy, fast-moving traffic without a shoulder/bikelane. My biggest asset is my mirror. As for other pointers on riding on these type of roads ----- be a very good bike handler and that only comes with a lot of riding. There are so many things I do, but hard to think of early in the morning before my first cup of coffee - maybe something will come to mind later.

However, I don't feel like I'm creating an obstacle for potential accident. It's perfectly safe to slow down and move over, for a cyclist or any other vehicle not going at the same speed of traffic. I see motorists being more of a hazard to one another than me on a bike. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people suddenly slow way down to make a turn and the car(s) behind having to slam on their brakes. Or drivers suddenly making a lane change. Motorists endanger one another much more than me on a bike causing them to move over.




.
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Old 08-09-22, 05:29 AM
  #53  
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If you feel unsafe riding on a road...don't ride on that road...
I don't care how many laws there are regarding motor vehicles and bicycles...if you get his by a car it may be the last thing you ever experience...certainly will be something you remember forever if you survive...
Today's drivers are more distracted than ever and I don't trust a single one of them to drive as the law requires.
I ride 30-50 miles daily and am fortunate to live in an area of wide shoulders and a small population but there are some roads I avoid...city's main streets especially...they just aren't safe...even bike lanes are iffy...
No answers unfortunately...
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Old 08-09-22, 08:42 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by The 2nd G View Post
On group rides, we never ride in the shoulder.
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I don't know of any down here that do ride in the shoulder. Nor does Wisconsin seem to condone riding in shoulders except for "higher speed" roads which to me will be busy US highways and maybe some state highways.

I disagree with their view that one should ride on the right of the road if they are talking extreme right. Most lanes won't allow the motorist to clear the cyclist by 3 feet required by many places and safely remain entirely in the same lane. So since the passing motorist will need part of the other lane to pass, it makes no sense to require the cyclist to ride on the extreme right of the lane.

All that will do is encourage passing motorist to squeeze by and violate the 3 feet with oncoming traffic in the other lane.

Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
For the original topic title, that'd be a NO as your place in the lane has to do with the white line anyway. Left of the white line so cars don't "cheat the pass" and hit you. So the shoulder is kind of arbitrary.

.
Originally Posted by DonkeyShow View Post
Around here where we don't have bike lanes we have many "bikes can use the full lane" signs so cars can smd.
The ah-ha moment is that I should take up an entire lane.
It never occurred to me to do that, as it seems reckless and selfish.
But, I agree that it's probably safer for the biker.
My instinct was to take up as little room as possible, and tuck myself into the side of the road.
But, this just invites cars to cheat the pass, as you said,

So, next ride, I will ride fully in the lane, and take up my own space, and ride like I am a car, not a meek guest infringing on car lanes.
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Old 08-09-22, 08:44 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by base2 View Post
Whenever I hear someone say that they "feel" safer riding salmon, I ask them how many collisions they have had.

The answer is invariably non-zero.

.
Zero.
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Old 08-09-22, 08:52 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
The ah-ha moment is that I should take up an entire lane.
It never occurred to me to do that, as it seems reckless and selfish.
But, I agree that it's probably safer for the biker.
My instinct was to take up as little room as possible, and tuck myself into the side of the road.
But, this just invites cars to cheat the pass, as you said,

So, next ride, I will ride fully in the lane, and take up my own space, and ride like I am a car, not a meek guest infringing on car lanes.
You got your first "like" from me with this comment.

The way I look at this is you really need to size up the road in order to figure out the best strategy. Roads vary so much that having only one rule to apply to everything doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to try to ride in the lane much on a 55 mph road (I do go into left turn lanes on such roads, but I do so very, very carefully), for example. Basically, I have a repertoire of strategies I use depending on the situation. I'm glad you're going to try adding taking the lane to your repertoire. It always beats salmoning for the reasons people discuss above.
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Old 08-09-22, 09:00 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
...
Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Also, I feel its safer to salmon in a shoulder lane, than to ride with traffic in the actual traffic lane. ...


Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
...So, next ride, I will ride fully in the lane, and take up my own space, and ride like I am a car, not a meek guest infringing on car lanes.
Glad to see an evolution in thinking. I was worried you'd do both.
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Old 08-09-22, 10:30 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
Zero.
Good for you.
I will update the tally.
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I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
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Old 08-09-22, 12:57 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Concur, though the "shoulders are safer" crowd does get one sentence of text.

Of course, that does assume a "shoulder" is 3-8' wide and well-paved. Most of the shoulders near me are 6-12" wide, and their apparent purpose is to let grass grow there and crumble the pavement without damaging the traffic lanes.
Most of the shoulders in my area are paved and 12" or more wider.

I'm telling ya...riding in the same lane as cars around here (even though it is legal) will get you honked at by angry motorists who then roll down the window and yell at you to get off the road.
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Old 08-09-22, 02:45 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
I'm telling ya...riding in the same lane as cars around here (even though it is legal) will get you honked at by angry motorists who then roll down the window and yell at you to get off the road.
Ah yes, the "get on the sidewalk" crowd...


Uhh, which sidewalk?
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Old 08-09-22, 02:55 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by CheGiantForLife View Post
It feels unsafe and borderline reckless to ride in actual traffic where there is no shoulder. For those who ride on roads with no shoulder, how do you deal with the fact that when you're riding with traffic, cars are constantly having to move half way out of the lane you're occupying? If there is not much traffic ...
It's not all on the cyclist or slower vehicle. It's on the following driver(s). Basic speed law always applies. Particularly in risky or potentially-dangerous situations like a slower-mover and attempting to effect a pass. Gotta do it safely. And that's on the person attempting it.

Frankly, there are towns where there simply are no alternative choices for getting from here to there. I live near a relatively narrow roadway such as that, with one lane in each direction, and a double-yellow dividing stripe down the middle for the whole distance. Yet, there isn't another safer way to get along the river aside from that route. And so, many cyclists use it.

And, yes, the occasional hot-head idiot criminal (read: driver) chooses to drive excruciatingly dangerously in and around the slow-movers. It's double-yellow for cause, due to the numerous side driveways and entries onto the road ... most of which simply cannot be seen until you're right on it. Which can make for passes that are deadly dangerous.

How to deal with it? IMO, visibility, and NOT being along the right-most two inches of the no-shoulder roadway. If people want to pass, THEY ARE REQUIRED BY LAW to make a safe pass when it is safe to do so. I've tried a few times, on that road, to "be nice" and occupy as little of that one lane as possible. Only to get closely passed uncounted times. Screw that. Far too dangerous. I'll be in a safe spot in the right lane, with as much lighting and hi-viz clothing as possible, and they can bloody well make a safe pass around me. Have seen it works consistently well, when larger groups of cyclists transit that road. (Double-yellow all the way, but idiot drivers will be, um, idiots. It's what they do.)

Can't see any better way around it. When there are no alternative routes, when there is no shoulder (and 3-6ft deep ditches off that lane line), when the lighting is poor (sunlight through the trees and colors/textures visually blending) ... there's not much one can do. High pucker factor on that route. But it is what it is. Drivers who frequently use that road know it's often got a cyclist or two, even a group (on the weekends). Best option is: great lighting, hi-viz clothing, and a consistent position and speed along the route. Good spot for a mirror, and video/audio recording.
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Old 08-09-22, 03:50 PM
  #62  
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Today, I did ride with traffic but when it was time to take a left turn, that would entail riding through a busy intersection.
I did not feel comfortable doing that, with people feeling like the bike is clogging the intersection and making them wait through another red light.
So, I stayed with traffic straight, went through the intersection, instead of taking a left turn.

Did my loop in reverse, but on the way back, I asserted myself and stayed in the right lane, not the sidewalk.
I still would not feel comfortable doing this during busy traffic, since this was a long uphill, and I was real slow
My chosen bike loop is all hills and almost no flats, for optimal HIIT.

Also, there is no way I am riding my bike on a double yellow zero shoulder road where cars drive 55mph+
That is just asking for trouble.

Also, I did salmon when it made sense.
Once side has a paved 8 foot wide shoulder, while the other side has nothing.
The choice is clear for me. Choose your battles.
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Old 08-09-22, 04:19 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Most of the shoulders in my area are paved and 12" or more wider.

I'm telling ya...riding in the same lane as cars around here (even though it is legal) will get you honked at by angry motorists who then roll down the window and yell at you to get off the road.
So? Are you needing to be loved by all?
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Old 08-09-22, 04:26 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Most of the shoulders in my area are paved and 12" or more wider.

I'm telling ya...riding in the same lane as cars around here (even though it is legal) will get you honked at by angry motorists who then roll down the window and yell at you to get off the road.
I rode on a narrow shoulder once. Got a flat tire. Full of debris.

If they're honking and yelling at me that means they see me and not staring at their text messages.

But since I installed a rear facing camera, the aggressiveness has gone down.
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Old 08-10-22, 07:31 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
So? Are you needing to be loved by all?

In my state, riding in a 55 mph lane when there's a well-paved 8-12 foot shoulder would clearly violate the frap law, but that's because NH law specifically makes the shoulder part of the road legally..

Last edited by livedarklions; 08-10-22 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 08-10-22, 07:48 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
So? Are you needing to be loved by all?
No. It's just safer to ride on the paved shoulder. Even the local bicycle group rides...if you move out into the car lane one of the other bicyclists in the group is bound to yell at you to get back on the shoulder and stay in single file. It's just the way it is.

This isn't rocket science folks. It's just common sense. Which apparently doesn't seem common lately.
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Old 08-10-22, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
No. It's just safer to ride on the paved shoulder. Even the local bicycle group rides...if you move out into the car lane one of the other bicyclists in the group is bound to yell at you to get back on the shoulder and stay in single file. It's just the way it is.

This isn't rocket science folks. It's just common sense. Which apparently doesn't seem common lately.
It's common sense to accept and cower to assaults for something you are allowed to do? You live in a different world that I do.

And for sure you live where I'm not. I can't assess whether or not I'd ride that road for any long stretch if at all. I avoid certain roads here where it makes no sense for me to be on them because the congestion and type of traffic exceeds my risk benefit acceptance.

But to make blanket assertions that others must also ride on the shoulders or not ride on roads with out shoulders just seems silly.

Common sense tells me that things are different in different places.
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Old 08-10-22, 08:14 AM
  #68  
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I am trying to recall if any of the mowed down cyclists that I knew or had ridden with at one time or another were on a shoulder? No, they were in the roadway but of course, they were dead right to be in the roadway.
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Old 08-10-22, 08:50 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Most of the shoulders in my area are paved and 12" or more wider.

I'm telling ya...riding in the same lane as cars around here (even though it is legal) will get you honked at by angry motorists who then roll down the window and yell at you to get off the road.
A reasonable option, where there are any shoulders. Assuming, of course, one is willing to ride over every bit of sharp and crash-causing detritus that typically collects in such areas. But, yes, safer than in the primary part of a roadway in places where there is a high incidence of criminally dangerous driving happening.

In my area, there are numerous roads without shoulder of any sort, with ditches, without alternatives along that stretch. Safest, by far, is to be another vehicle in the lane, clearly seen, where every motorist understands that another vehicle already occupying a lane has every right to be there in that safest of spots.

Of course, obviously, "safe" is relative. Every road's different, as to how poorly it was engineered to accommodate anything other than fat-bodied, mindlessly-driven motor vehicles that run perfectly down the center of a lane. Sadly, where I live, being such an old city there are numerous roads that don't really hold up well with today's knowledge of proper roadway engineering principles. Certainly not when viewed from a cyclist's perspective.
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Old 08-10-22, 09:24 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
It's common sense to accept and cower to assaults for something you are allowed to do? You live in a different world that I do.

And for sure you live where I'm not. I can't assess whether or not I'd ride that road for any long stretch if at all. I avoid certain roads here where it makes no sense for me to be on them because the congestion and type of traffic exceeds my risk benefit acceptance.

But to make blanket assertions that others must also ride on the shoulders or not ride on roads with out shoulders just seems silly.

Common sense tells me that things are different in different places.
Ride in the car lane where your chances are greater to get mowed down by a car OR ride in the paved shoulder where you are somewhat safer because the cars will go by you and don't have to veer to go around you. And you are less likely to get hit if they aren't paying attention.

So you know to ride on the right. But how far to the right? That depends. If there's a bike lane, that's your best bet (though realize that sometimes you'll need to leave the lane to avoid obstacles like parked cars). If there's no designated bike lane, ride on the shoulder to allow cars to pass freely with a good bit of buffer room

https://www.bicycling.com/rides/a200...e-on-the-road/

Paved shoulders create separated space for bicyclists and also provide motor vehicle safety benefits and space for inoperable vehicles to pull out of the travel lane.

Bicycle Safety Guide and Countermeasure Selection System

Again...This shouldn't be a difficult concept to comprehend.

On a two way road if there is a logging truck behind me and car coming from the opposite direction there is no room for the logging truck to move over towards the other lane to avoid hitting me if I were riding my bike in the car lane...this happens quite often when I am out road riding. Thus, riding on the paved shoulder is the safest option for everyone involved.
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Old 08-10-22, 11:43 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by prj71 View Post
Ride in the car lane where your chances are greater to get mowed down by a car OR ride in the paved shoulder where you are somewhat safer because the cars will go by you and don't have to veer to go around you. And you are less likely to get hit if they aren't paying attention.

So you know to ride on the right. But how far to the right? That depends. If there's a bike lane, that's your best bet (though realize that sometimes you'll need to leave the lane to avoid obstacles like parked cars). If there's no designated bike lane, ride on the shoulder to allow cars to pass freely with a good bit of buffer room

https://www.bicycling.com/rides/a200...e-on-the-road/

Paved shoulders create separated space for bicyclists and also provide motor vehicle safety benefits and space for inoperable vehicles to pull out of the travel lane.

Bicycle Safety Guide and Countermeasure Selection System

Again...This shouldn't be a difficult concept to comprehend.

On a two way road if there is a logging truck behind me and car coming from the opposite direction there is no room for the logging truck to move over towards the other lane to avoid hitting me if I were riding my bike in the car lane...this happens quite often when I am out road riding. Thus, riding on the paved shoulder is the safest option for everyone involved.
You're oversimplifying it. Let's say there's sporadic parked cars all along the shoulder. It would be foolish to duck in between them for short distances because every time you pop back out to go around them, you are appearing out of thin air. Or the shoulders with drainage grates which could swallow a road bike tire. Shoulders that stop and start frequently with those deep rumble strips between them and the traffic lane (June Lake Loop is/was a wonderful example).

Iride01 's point is that there are exceptions, and you shouldn't be making blanket statements about other people's situations which you don't know all the details about.
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Old 08-11-22, 05:11 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanknight View Post
You're oversimplifying it. Let's say there's sporadic parked cars all along the shoulder. It would be foolish to duck in between them for short distances because every time you pop back out to go around them, you are appearing out of thin air. Or the shoulders with drainage grates which could swallow a road bike tire. Shoulders that stop and start frequently with those deep rumble strips between them and the traffic lane (June Lake Loop is/was a wonderful example).

Iride01 's point is that there are exceptions, and you shouldn't be making blanket statements about other people's situations which you don't know all the details about.
Right.
Shoulders are probably the least standardized part of US roads, so having a general rule is not reasonable when the specific roads you ride on are going to vary so much. I've ridden on 55 mph roads where the shoulders are better than having a bike lane would be, and others where the shoulders are too narrow and variable to be of any use.
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Old 08-11-22, 06:23 AM
  #73  
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Glad to see it's not black or white.
I personally will always choose the shoulder, when that is an option.
Bottom line is that a bike going 10mph is always an obstacle obstruction for cars.
Best to minimize your interference to the normal flow of traffic
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Old 08-11-22, 06:57 AM
  #74  
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Ever notice how people with the strongest opinions (like against Varia radar, or whatever) are the ones with no direct first hand experience?

scary.
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Old 08-11-22, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
In my state, riding in a 55 mph lane when there's a well-paved 8-12 foot shoulder would clearly violate the frap law, but that's because NH law specifically makes the shoulder part of the road legally..
Around here we arent legally allowed on roads marked over 50mph. Wouldn't want to tbh.
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