What exactly is BB30?
01-29-13, 11:46 AM
#101
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TO understand BB30 you need to understand the square taper -> isis/octalink -> Outboard bearing/Hollowgram transition.
Square taper- small spindle, Larger bearing balls, normal Q factor
Octalink- large spindle, but needs smaller bearing balls to fit inside the frame's BB shell, Normal Q factor.
Outboard bearing- Large spindle, larger bearing balls, but wider Q factor.
BB is the next evolution in this thinking, one that allows for a narrow Q factor yet retains the larger bearing balls and larger spindle of the Evolutions since ISIS.
BB30 is also the first design to take on a new BB shell (other than some oddball solutions, like Gary Fisher's sealed cartridge bearing BBs that popped up in the mid 80s. Right?
Square taper- small spindle, Larger bearing balls, normal Q factor
Octalink- large spindle, but needs smaller bearing balls to fit inside the frame's BB shell, Normal Q factor.
Outboard bearing- Large spindle, larger bearing balls, but wider Q factor.
BB is the next evolution in this thinking, one that allows for a narrow Q factor yet retains the larger bearing balls and larger spindle of the Evolutions since ISIS.
BB30 is also the first design to take on a new BB shell (other than some oddball solutions, like Gary Fisher's sealed cartridge bearing BBs that popped up in the mid 80s. Right?
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01-29-13, 11:47 AM
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01-29-13, 02:01 PM
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A treatise could be written comparing BB30 to theaded BB. I believe largely what you have written because of course it is rooted in fact and experience.
I do have to ask however. I believe you still ride a fair amount of miles. How often do you service your BB30?..based upon miles or time? Do you regrease?...or automatically replace the bearings which are inexpensive?
Further to others comments...this discussion is about BB30 and PF30 hasn't been mentioned...PF30 involves Delrin bushings which have been statistically more problematic than BB30...because of the low yield strength and lubricity of Delrin bushings. PF30 offers a considerable cost savings to the frame mfr...in terms of mfg cost. Specialized uses a narrow version of PF30 on their flagship Sworks bikes and many have suffered. As RW stated, pro racers who race these bikes can change bearings every couple of days if they want...a pro mechanic can change them in ten minutes. BB30 versus threaded carbon shell...almost a wash cost wise. BB30 bores have to be machined and precise...best to finish machine for co-linearity after insert molding the alloy cups. If you Loctite in BB30 bearings, they shouldn't make noise. PF30 is more challenged from a maintenance standpoint.
Speaking of which, Roadwarrior, have you owned PF30 bikes?
I do have to ask however. I believe you still ride a fair amount of miles. How often do you service your BB30?..based upon miles or time? Do you regrease?...or automatically replace the bearings which are inexpensive?
Further to others comments...this discussion is about BB30 and PF30 hasn't been mentioned...PF30 involves Delrin bushings which have been statistically more problematic than BB30...because of the low yield strength and lubricity of Delrin bushings. PF30 offers a considerable cost savings to the frame mfr...in terms of mfg cost. Specialized uses a narrow version of PF30 on their flagship Sworks bikes and many have suffered. As RW stated, pro racers who race these bikes can change bearings every couple of days if they want...a pro mechanic can change them in ten minutes. BB30 versus threaded carbon shell...almost a wash cost wise. BB30 bores have to be machined and precise...best to finish machine for co-linearity after insert molding the alloy cups. If you Loctite in BB30 bearings, they shouldn't make noise. PF30 is more challenged from a maintenance standpoint.
Speaking of which, Roadwarrior, have you owned PF30 bikes?
01-29-13, 03:26 PM
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Bearings are pressed in place. Park sells a bearing press or you can make one out of threaded rod with fender washers to draw bearings into BB bores.
As discussed, they tap right out from the back side with a dowel and hammer. No need to use a press for removal. Service of BB30 is simple. In theory also less expensive. BB30's are cheap compared to DA BB's, square taper of years past etc.
01-29-13, 04:15 PM
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This is the freakin' deal for installing and removing BB30. Makes the Park tool look iron age by comparison.
https://www.bikesonline.com/enduro-bb...oving-tool.htm
https://www.bikesonline.com/enduro-bb...oving-tool.htm
01-29-13, 04:21 PM
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If you want a good review of how to service BB30, go to Park's website...an excellent resource for bike maintenance.
Bearings are pressed in place. Park sells a bearing press or you can make one out of threaded rod with fender washers to draw bearings into BB bores.
As discussed, they tap right out from the back side with a dowel and hammer. No need to use a press for removal. Service of BB30 is simple. In theory also less expensive. BB30's are cheap compared to DA BB's, square taper of years past etc.
Bearings are pressed in place. Park sells a bearing press or you can make one out of threaded rod with fender washers to draw bearings into BB bores.
As discussed, they tap right out from the back side with a dowel and hammer. No need to use a press for removal. Service of BB30 is simple. In theory also less expensive. BB30's are cheap compared to DA BB's, square taper of years past etc.
Yet another question if you don't mind: Are the bearing assemblies pressed right against the carbon on CF bikes...or is the BB bore reinforced with a metal bushing or something? (Sorry for all the questions- just trying to learn- as the only BB I've ever had apart, was a threaded one on an old department store bike, with loose bearing in cages.....)
01-29-13, 07:09 PM
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I don't know how this isn't getting through but folks, BB30 ISN'T cheaper to manufacture.
Again, NOT CHEAPER.
Crappy Chinese frame factories prefer BSA because it IS less expensive and technically less demanding for them to do.
Again, NOT CHEAPER.
Crappy Chinese frame factories prefer BSA because it IS less expensive and technically less demanding for them to do.
01-29-13, 07:24 PM
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Bob, I think I'm the one who started the cheaper line based on something that I had read, on BF I believe. I have said all along that I don't work in cycling, and that any of my commentary was based on the following: if you hand me a frame with an unmachined aluminum insert, and a spec for coaxiality that is probably +-.001", I could make bb30 cheaper. It was all hypothetical.
Sorry to cause the angst that this has apparently caused you.
Sorry to cause the angst that this has apparently caused you.
01-30-13, 12:03 AM
#109
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Bob, I think I'm the one who started the cheaper line based on something that I had read, on BF I believe. I have said all along that I don't work in cycling, and that any of my commentary was based on the following: if you hand me a frame with an unmachined aluminum insert, and a spec for coaxiality that is probably +-.001", I could make bb30 cheaper. It was all hypothetical.
Sorry to cause the angst that this has apparently caused you.
Sorry to cause the angst that this has apparently caused you.
I think the issue for frame makers isn't about machining or any single step; It's about bonding, machining and heating the frame after paint and having the final product be in spec. This thread has put a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this and now I want specifics.
I have some factory visits scheduled between Chinese New Year and Taipei show. It will be the right time and place to dig up specifics. I'll find a time and place to post what I learn as there's no scarcity of these threads.
01-30-13, 05:36 AM
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Thank you. I tried. But remember where we are...
01-30-13, 06:43 AM
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No angst caused. I like your posts. They learn me about machine which isn't what I do.
I think the issue for frame makers isn't about machining or any single step; It's about bonding, machining and heating the frame after paint and having the final product be in spec. This thread has put a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this and now I want specifics.
I have some factory visits scheduled between Chinese New Year and Taipei show. It will be the right time and place to dig up specifics. I'll find a time and place to post what I learn as there's no scarcity of these threads.
I think the issue for frame makers isn't about machining or any single step; It's about bonding, machining and heating the frame after paint and having the final product be in spec. This thread has put a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this and now I want specifics.
I have some factory visits scheduled between Chinese New Year and Taipei show. It will be the right time and place to dig up specifics. I'll find a time and place to post what I learn as there's no scarcity of these threads.
Whatever you share on the subject moving forward would be informative. Again, I agree that BB30 can't offer much if any cost savings to mfr and I fully understand why the preference would be to insert mold a single sleeve with threads on each side aka BSA BB.
01-30-13, 09:14 AM
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The BB30 FM066 chinese carbon frame I just got has a full width aluminium bearing insert. I have seen pictures of BB30 frames with full aluminium inserts and with no aluminium insert, just a carbon shell. I haven't seen one with two small aluminium inserts. That would be more difficult to make and to make the inserts concentric, as you point out. They'd have to bond the inserts in and then bore the frame with the inserts.
The inside of the FM066's shell looks machined, not honed.
I would like to know if the frame is built up around the shell, with the shell held in place by the mold. Or if the frame is built up without the shell, then bored and the shell is inserted and glued in place. The latter would not allow the shell to be 'keyed' to the frame. The former would be easier to manufacture. The heat used to cure CF is too low to cause aluminium parts to warp. But expansion/contraction could be a problem for the built around the insert method.
The inside of the FM066's shell looks machined, not honed.
I would like to know if the frame is built up around the shell, with the shell held in place by the mold. Or if the frame is built up without the shell, then bored and the shell is inserted and glued in place. The latter would not allow the shell to be 'keyed' to the frame. The former would be easier to manufacture. The heat used to cure CF is too low to cause aluminium parts to warp. But expansion/contraction could be a problem for the built around the insert method.
Last edited by ericm979; 01-30-13 at 09:22 AM.
01-30-13, 10:51 AM
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The BB30 FM066 chinese carbon frame I just got has a full width aluminium bearing insert. I have seen pictures of BB30 frames with full aluminium inserts and with no aluminium insert, just a carbon shell. I haven't seen one with two small aluminium inserts. That would be more difficult to make and to make the inserts concentric, as you point out. They'd have to bond the inserts in and then bore the frame with the inserts.
The inside of the FM066's shell looks machined, not honed.
I would like to know if the frame is built up around the shell, with the shell held in place by the mold. Or if the frame is built up without the shell, then bored and the shell is inserted and glued in place. The latter would not allow the shell to be 'keyed' to the frame. The former would be easier to manufacture. The heat used to cure CF is too low to cause aluminium parts to warp. But expansion/contraction could be a problem for the built around the insert method.
The inside of the FM066's shell looks machined, not honed.
I would like to know if the frame is built up around the shell, with the shell held in place by the mold. Or if the frame is built up without the shell, then bored and the shell is inserted and glued in place. The latter would not allow the shell to be 'keyed' to the frame. The former would be easier to manufacture. The heat used to cure CF is too low to cause aluminium parts to warp. But expansion/contraction could be a problem for the built around the insert method.
To your point about BB30 being a single alloy inserted sleeve...same as BSA sleeve...quite certain this is how most if not all BB30 frames are made...which makes sense...to control true position of left and right bore centers.
See Specalized BB30 pic below and compare to my BSA Roubaix above...pretty much identical...only difference being diameter of alloy insert...surrounding carbon frame members are the same geometry and size.
01-30-13, 12:13 PM
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Now, I'm no egg-spurt on bikes, nor manufacturing...but it seems to me, that BB30s could be installed completely by machines....whereas standard threaded BBs would, if nothing else, require an actual human to adjust. No?
01-30-13, 12:52 PM
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[Not necessarily arguing...nor agreeing...but...] What then was the purpose for inventing BB30? If they already had a cheaper, easier way to manufacture BBs which had superior strength and durability? [I wouldn't buy the argument that it was merely to save a fraction of an ounce of weight]
Now, I'm no egg-spurt on bikes, nor manufacturing...but it seems to me, that BB30s could be installed completely by machines....whereas standard threaded BBs would, if nothing else, require an actual human to adjust. No?
Now, I'm no egg-spurt on bikes, nor manufacturing...but it seems to me, that BB30s could be installed completely by machines....whereas standard threaded BBs would, if nothing else, require an actual human to adjust. No?
1. lighter weight (fractional)
2. stiffer aka 30mm versus 24mm dia spindle...and shorter spindle due to inboard bearings. Shorter + wider = stiffer. (won't matter to even a strong cyclist IMO...or virtually undectable.
3. Reduced Q-factor...no benefit if you are wide hipped like me, but others will like it.
4. Lower cost. It could be argued perhaps not from a manufacturing standpoint....precision bores versus threaded sleeve is close to a wash...but to the consumer. BB30 bearings are cheap. You don't need a full BB as in years past...or even pricey DA thread in bearing cups as with external bearing cranks with BSA. Just bearings.
For some perspective...lets not completely throw BB30 under the bus as much as it is criticized on the web. To me...this is my technical opinion...it is far superior to earlier Campy sqaure taper sealed BB's. Others will disagree with this assertion...but I always hated square taper for a few different reasons. There is no perfect design and I believe future BB designs will continue to improve.
Roadwarrior who knows more about bikes and racing then just about all here doesn't have much trouble with BB30 and he works in the industry.
Last edited by Campag4life; 01-30-13 at 12:56 PM.
01-30-13, 01:23 PM
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For some perspective...lets not completely throw BB30 under the bus as much as it is criticized on the web. To me...this is my technical opinion...it is far superior to earlier Campy sqaure taper sealed BB's. Others will disagree with this assertion...but I always hated square taper for a few different reasons. There is no perfect design and I believe future BB designs will continue to improve.
Roadwarrior who knows more about bikes and racing then just about all here doesn't have much trouble with BB30 and he works in the industry.
For some perspective...lets not completely throw BB30 under the bus as much as it is criticized on the web. To me...this is my technical opinion...it is far superior to earlier Campy sqaure taper sealed BB's. Others will disagree with this assertion...but I always hated square taper for a few different reasons. There is no perfect design and I believe future BB designs will continue to improve.
Roadwarrior who knows more about bikes and racing then just about all here doesn't have much trouble with BB30 and he works in the industry.
One of the things I love about cycling, is that it is simple and basic...and so are bicycles. It saddens me when I see them needlessly complicating such simple machines [In general- not necessarily about BBs]. Integrated shifters/brake levers were a true advancement....most other things...just needless fluff.
01-30-13, 01:29 PM
#117
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While I tend to prefer things which have stood the test of time, in the overall scheme of things, for the average recreational rider, I would tend to think that the differences would be negligible/unnoticeable- as i believe to be the case with many cycling-related products. I think a lot of what exists, exists solely for marketing...to sell new products...to create new and different things which people are made to feel that they "just gotta have", when in fact, there is no real appreciable benefit.
One of the things I love about cycling, is that it is simple and basic...and so are bicycles. It saddens me when I see them needlessly complicating such simple machines [In general- not necessarily about BBs]. Integrated shifters/brake levers were a true advancement....most other things...just needless fluff.
One of the things I love about cycling, is that it is simple and basic...and so are bicycles. It saddens me when I see them needlessly complicating such simple machines [In general- not necessarily about BBs]. Integrated shifters/brake levers were a true advancement....most other things...just needless fluff.
My pretty much state of the art, Wilier Zero 7 now weighs 13lbs. And it handles, rides, brakes, and shifts better. The difference is clearly noticeable.
Seven pounds is a meaningful difference. Admittedly the press fit BB is only a very small part of that weight difference, but the things you cavil against all go up to make the 7lb difference.
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01-30-13, 01:49 PM
#118
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Yup...they are BB30. An Ultegra crank is one of the most popular and effectively adapted external bearing crank that will adapt to BB/PF30.
Most bike makers use Wheel Mfg. spacers...which space radially from 24mm spindle to 30mm BB30 ID and outboard to take up axial distance between bearing being mounted inside aka BB30 versus outside the shell as is the case with outboard bearings.
Most bike makers use Wheel Mfg. spacers...which space radially from 24mm spindle to 30mm BB30 ID and outboard to take up axial distance between bearing being mounted inside aka BB30 versus outside the shell as is the case with outboard bearings.
The Giant Defy Advanced uses BB86 press fit bearings, while the Trek 5.2 uses BB90 slip fit bearings. The difference is BB86 (like PF30) uses internal cups while BB90 (like BB30) uses integrated races. Both BB86 and BB90 will natively accomodate the 24 mm spindle of the Ultegra crankset without the need for adapters. The graphic table below is a helpful guide in thinking about this.
vesteroid, the discussion of internal cups versus integrated races is really what's being debated about extensively in this thread. The other minor debate going on in this thread is external bearings versus internal bearings. It's a very lively thread, and quite educational for me as well. I especially like reading those posts from people who seem to have had many years of firsthand experience working on the different kinds.
01-30-13, 03:31 PM
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Yup...the basis for my assertion. From a percentage standpoint...bearings outboard a 68mm shell versus inboard...it ain't small change.
The torque moment percentage wise is likely on the order of 10-20% more torque on inside of shell BB30/PF30 bearings for same pedal force because spacing is quite a bit less. Although unsubstantiated, this may contribute to reduced bearing life as well...which is often reported versus outboard bearings which in my experience have good durability life.
The torque moment percentage wise is likely on the order of 10-20% more torque on inside of shell BB30/PF30 bearings for same pedal force because spacing is quite a bit less. Although unsubstantiated, this may contribute to reduced bearing life as well...which is often reported versus outboard bearings which in my experience have good durability life.
Edit: Ah, don't bother answering my question. I just came upon your post #91 at https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post15211329 and it answers my question perfectly. Thanks.
Last edited by jaltone; 01-30-13 at 03:39 PM.
01-30-13, 03:43 PM
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Carbon fibre is not injection molded. It is laid up. By hand, since computer controlled layup has not been perfected. When it is we'll get more and cheaper CF stuff.
01-30-13, 03:52 PM
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01-30-13, 04:05 PM
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Regrase...loctite....never had an issue...bike is torn down totally once per year for parts etc...have no pf30 bikes. I will admit my miles are down due to life changes. But I have a bb30 caad9 that gets hammered on in a traner all winter, it is three years old and I am still using the original stuff. Lube it and clean it. I just don't have problems with this stuff for whatever reason.
01-30-13, 04:08 PM
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You forgot the epoxy matrix...lol.
How carbon fiber parts are created:
Sheets of carbon fiber cloth are layered into a mold in the shape of the final product. The alignment and weave of the cloth fibers is chosen to optimize the strength and stiffness properties of the resulting material. The mold is then injected with epoxy and is heated or air-cured.
Last edited by Campag4life; 01-30-13 at 04:12 PM.
01-30-13, 04:08 PM
#124
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An honest question: how much force does this "tapping" entail? Would the force equivalent to hitting with the heel of a palm do it? Or would it require a rubber mallet's force to do it? Just for my education, you see. And if it requires a rubber mallet, wouldn't it be a little bit scary doing this if the frame were carbon? Ditto for either BB30 and PF30?
01-30-13, 04:10 PM
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If you want a good review of how to service BB30, go to Park's website...an excellent resource for bike maintenance.
Bearings are pressed in place. Park sells a bearing press or you can make one out of threaded rod with fender washers to draw bearings into BB bores.
As discussed, they tap right out from the back side with a dowel and hammer. No need to use a press for removal. Service of BB30 is simple. In theory also less expensive. BB30's are cheap compared to DA BB's, square taper of years past etc.
Bearings are pressed in place. Park sells a bearing press or you can make one out of threaded rod with fender washers to draw bearings into BB bores.
As discussed, they tap right out from the back side with a dowel and hammer. No need to use a press for removal. Service of BB30 is simple. In theory also less expensive. BB30's are cheap compared to DA BB's, square taper of years past etc.