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Are higher-end Shimano groupsets "better" or just lighter?

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Are higher-end Shimano groupsets "better" or just lighter?

Old 09-14-21, 10:34 AM
  #51  
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OK, so here's what I've taken from the discussions in two threads now as a person who doesn't own either Dura Ace or post-1990s Ultegra:

TI cogs wear faster for some people and not others (this makes sense for me because people's gear usage, etc. will be different).


Other parts last too long for people to live long enough to wear out a decent sized sample of the two groups. At this level, stuff other than chains and cassettes is good for too many decades for the differences (if there are any) to matter. We're probably talking about whether or not the drivetrain will still be in good enough shape to pass on to your grandchildren. Who cares?

People usually like what they have.
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Old 09-14-21, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Am I in this Starbucks, or the one across the street?
No.
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Old 09-14-21, 10:51 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Troul
The "nicer" stuff still gets just as dirty & is just as hard to clean. Which, is a confusing thing.
if it weighed less, I'd expect it to hold less gunk.
I'm not sure that is exactly true.

The newer Ultegra level hubs have exceptional labyrinth seals on their hubs. They also have much better quality cones than in the lower quality hubs.

Now, going the other way, you can get chains with hollow pins and slotted plates. Are those made to be cleaned?

Campagnolo may use high quality ceramic bearings in their Super Record bottom brackets, but the ones I've seen were without seals. So they spin very nicely, but get them contaminated, and they turn crunchy quickly.
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Old 09-14-21, 11:27 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I'm not sure that is exactly true.

The newer Ultegra level hubs have exceptional labyrinth seals on their hubs. They also have much better quality cones than in the lower quality hubs.

Now, going the other way, you can get chains with hollow pins and slotted plates. Are those made to be cleaned?

Campagnolo may use high quality ceramic bearings in their Super Record bottom brackets, but the ones I've seen were without seals. So they spin very nicely, but get them contaminated, and they turn crunchy quickly.
Not concerned with hubs. Rear & front derailleurs are hard to keep clean as well as cassettes.
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Old 09-15-21, 09:26 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Troul
Not concerned with hubs. Rear & front derailleurs are hard to keep clean as well as cassettes.
That’s not due to the design nor level of components. That’s user error. I haven’t cleaned a cassette or rear derailer in more than 20 years. All these are in use…i.e. not cleaned before photos. Some have been in use for thousands of miles.









Hint: quit using oil.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:16 AM
  #56  
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Even on the bikes I lube with liquid, I never had a problem cleaning them. Scrape the jockey wheels, and every now and then Simple Green the works and spray it with a weak stream. Never found any aspect of bike maintenance difficult.

I'd like to make jokes about people who find it challenging to clean a bicycle .... but here in PC world I'd probably get sued.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:19 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
That’s not due to the design nor level of components. That’s user error. I haven’t cleaned a cassette or rear derailer in more than 20 years. All these are in use…i.e. not cleaned before photos. Some have been in use for thousands of miles.
Upgrading to Dura Ace would help offset the weight penalty of those valve caps.
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Old 09-15-21, 11:45 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Even on the bikes I lube with liquid, I never had a problem cleaning them. Scrape the jockey wheels, and every now and then Simple Green the works and spray it with a weak stream. Never found any aspect of bike maintenance difficult.

I'd like to make jokes about people who find it challenging to clean a bicycle .... but here in PC world I'd probably get sued.

blast away.

I'm just particular with how I prefer the drivetrain. Factor in the environment conditions & it's a constant twig/hair/road rocks buffet in the system.
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Old 09-15-21, 01:20 PM
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So, in sum, it's basically a matter of how many "really, really"s you want in front of your superlative.

I'd like to say I'm disappointed that the anti-derailleur people didn't turn up, but.....
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Old 09-15-21, 01:25 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Troul
blast away.

I'm just particular with how I prefer the drivetrain. Factor in the environment conditions & it's a constant twig/hair/road rocks buffet in the system.

Do you really get rocks caught in the drive train? No judgment, just curious cuz I've never seen that.

I've never found a little schmutz to be much of a problem, but twigs aren't in there long enough to make it to the end of the ride. I'll stop and pull that crap out.
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Old 09-15-21, 06:03 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Upgrading to Dura Ace would help offset the weight penalty of those valve caps.
I already have XTR and XO, Dura Ace isn’t going to be much lighter.

My valve caps are part of a theme. You’re just jealous. If you saw my Rat Finks, you’d be really jealous.
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Old 09-15-21, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
I'd like to make jokes about people who find it challenging to clean a bicycle .... but here in PC world I'd probably get sued.
I like to make jokes about people who find it necessary to constantly clean their bikes…
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Old 09-15-21, 06:12 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I already have XTR and XO, Dura Ace isn’t going to be much lighter.

My valve caps are part of a theme. You’re just jealous. If you saw my Rat Finks, you’d be really jealous.
What's the theme, and what are Rat Finks?
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Old 09-15-21, 08:11 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by himespau
Top tier is actually less durable (though gets new technology first that later trickles down) because it's made to be light above all else. 2nd or 3rd tier is probably the sweet spot. Especially if you're not racing. The tech has had time to mature as it trickled down and the components are slightly heavier duty.
You should say that to my Dura Ace 7400 Groupset, it is from the Nineteen Hundred and Eighties and still works must be less durable. Also my old XT stuff is super durable and I have one from before XTR existed probably from 94 or so. Yes a wear item made of less durable materials will probably last a bit less then something made of stronger materials but that is not a result of top tier groupsets it is just a wear item made of a different material.

I can say Ultegra or XT is probably a better option for most people it works really well and is usually decently cheaper but is not necessarily more or less durable then Dura Ace or XTR. I will say generally Ultegra has always looked a bit better most of the time except maybe in the 9 speed era but that is not a reflection on durability either.
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Old 09-15-21, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
What's the theme, and what are Rat Finks?
It’s my Dean’s colors (well the decal colors_ red, blue


yellow, green. If you look at the wheels the color scheme is carried through on the spoke nipples.



Cables have the same scheme. The barend plugs, headset cap, and seatpost clamp also have the same scheme. The shifters have a red shifter paddle, a blue clamp (right), a yellow clamp (left) and a green paddle on the left. Chainring bolts and brake rotor bolts follow the same pattern. You can’t really see it, but even have the cable bumpers in the same color scheme. They were where all the foolishness started.


The Rat Finks on are this bike.



Behold with envy!

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Old 09-16-21, 01:28 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Do you really get rocks caught in the drive train? No judgment, just curious cuz I've never seen that.

I've never found a little schmutz to be much of a problem, but twigs aren't in there long enough to make it to the end of the ride. I'll stop and pull that crap out.
Yes. Had a rock kick up & lodge itself in between a gear out back in the cassette. Ironically, I used a nearby stick to pick it out. The twigs will stay in place until I stop & address it. Usually it messes with shifting so I'm left no choice.
If I ride 99.99% on the road, I often avoid most debris [except for rocks] . The mups are dumps here.
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Old 09-16-21, 10:16 AM
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What is mounted underneath the downtube?
Originally Posted by cyccommute


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Old 09-16-21, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
What is mounted underneath the downtube?
Mucky Nutz Gut Fender. Keeps the various biological emanations from various animals from hitting me under the chin. Keeps rocks from hitting me too. This picture was taking in the spring. In the winter, there is usually a SKS Shock Board under the crown. Later in the year both disappear.

Summer togs

DSCN0465 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

Winter togs (before the color foolishness and before frame modifications)

DSCN0302 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
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Old 09-16-21, 03:58 PM
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Everything is so right about those pictures. He may be a pain on BF, but the guy has awesome taste in bikes and cycling.
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Old 09-17-21, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Have to be careful with Sora, though. Some of the brifters use those damn thumb triggers for shifting and while I'm sure that has its devotees, I find it quite awful. It ruins riding the hoods for me.
I have seen this comment a few times now since each time I click into the thread its at the top of the most recent page. So I cant hold it in anymore- Sora hasnt used a thumb shifter since 2012. Almost a decade of Sora shifters with STI paddles. Its been 2 generations of STI actually. Even Claris has been STI since 2013.
Yes the thumb shifters are still around on bikes, ts evidence that they clearly last a long time(or people dont use the bikes frequently!), but it isnt something anyone buying new needs to think about, and many buying used Sora dont need to worry either at this point.
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Old 09-17-21, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
I have seen this comment a few times now since each time I click into the thread its at the top of the most recent page. So I cant hold it in anymore- Sora hasnt used a thumb shifter since 2012. Almost a decade of Sora shifters with STI paddles. Its been 2 generations of STI actually. Even Claris has been STI since 2013.
Yes the thumb shifters are still around on bikes, ts evidence that they clearly last a long time(or people dont use the bikes frequently!), but it isnt something anyone buying new needs to think about, and many buying used Sora dont need to worry either at this point.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I could have sworn that they were bringing Sora thumb shifters back as an STI option.

Notice, though, that I specified "some" Sora brifters. It's definitely something to be aware of if you're looking at used bikes as well as new ones. OP didn't specify that they were looking only at new bikes.
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Old 09-17-21, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Everything is so right about those pictures. He may be a pain on BF, but the guy has awesome taste in bikes and cycling.
Thanks…I think?
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Old 09-20-21, 03:04 PM
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I have had bikes with Ultegra and that groupset has worked very well for me. When I bought pedals I just went with 105's. The 105 groupset as a whole is actually very good and the benefit you get from Ultegra and Dura Ace is very small. If I really wanted to improve my bikes performance it would probably be better to drop 10lbs!
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