repechage

but do they read and speak Japanese?

mstateglfr 

Can't say topic has come up in any interview I've read or listed to with either of these guys, so I dont know.
I also don't know what their fluency in Japanese has to do with the discussion.

gomango

My only complaint about wireless is the cost.

While we are talking Shimano here, I actually prefer SRAM eTap systems at this point.

I have a Yeti SB165 frameset on order and I really want the eTap XXI Eagle AXS system.

That's right up until I price everything and go into shock.

I was joking with friends on a ride the other day that I could get a new motorcycle (dirt bike) for far less than a mtb nowadays.

Andy_K 

105 has always been good enough for serious enthusiast use. For the past 10 years, Tiagra and Sora have also been good enough for serious use. The biggest thing this changes is that people won't be able to debate whether 105 or Ultegra is the sweet spot in the Shimano lineup any more. Frankly, I think this is a logical result of their trickle down technology strategy. There's only so much improvement that can be made to mechanical shifting, and as you move to more and more cogs there's a serious danger of that curve starting to go the other way.

I'd really like to see a company emerge that manufacturers 10-speed Campy ergo clone components. The patents have expired, right? I'm not sure what prevents this other than me being the only person that wants it. It probably won't be long before I'll be able to 3D print all the pieces and make my own for a reasonable cost. Can you 3D print replacement hoods yet?

La Brea Bike

I have yet to have anyone tell me that a properly tuned mechanical system in the hands of an experienced rider is any worse than than a Di system. No thank you.

RiddleOfSteel

Unsurprising opinions here. For all of you that don't want it and aren't interested, no one's coming after your pearl(-finished silver component)s and forcing you to install them on your bike. It's ok!
@genejockey it is possible to run electronic shifting on a vintage bike. I have done so on several frames. It helps to have a black or white bike (and matching electrical tape) as those are the colors of the adhesive wire guides/channels that you can run on your frame (downtube primarily). SRAM eTap is actually the most vintage-friendly in that it's fully wireless. It's a bit space-age looking for most all vintage frames, and it's stupid expensive, which limits its appeal. Shimano had two generations of Di2 in 10-speed form, which means you can use "normal" 8-10 speed era wheels (like 7403 or 6403 rear hubs). Campagnolo debuted their EPS with 11-speed, which uses the same 9-11-speed hubs they'd already been using for some time.

Keeping this C&V, or at least future C&V relevant, the STIs going wireless is a BIG deal for me and any future heretical vintage/semi-vintage builds. Why? Because running a loooong wire from one awkwardly-placed junction box zip-tied to the stem, to another junction box hanging on the outside of the base of the downtube, is a hassle and hard to disguise if not a black or white frame. FD, RD, and battery are wired (or connect via wire to each other), use an 11-speed freehub (these 11-speed era wheels will continue to become cheaper, just like 8-10 speed before them, and 5/6/7-speed before them). Cable braking is still available. I think there is a cleanliness to these new designs, particularly with R8100 Ultegra. R8000 and R9100 were super sci-fi, which I never really liked (especially when considering it for a vintage frame). I get very subtle vintage-component design vibes in R8100's various components. Crank arms are too thick, IMO.

Yes the new wire connections are smaller in diameter, so the 2nd gen of e-tubes (6700 Ultegra to R9100 Dura-Ace) will not be compatible, BUT how easy is it now to unscrew the plastic under-the-BB-shell shift cable guides and just run the Di2 wire up into the BB shell (via that screw/bolt hole, which are often of decent diameter) and on up the seat tube to the seat post?!? Or just drill a hole in the BB shell, not unlike what companies have done for generator/dynamo wiring in the past (and even now). The ability for a much stealthier e-shifting install on a vintage or non-e-shift-ready frame is greatly increased.

Like @andy k said, the lower tier Shimano groupsets are really, really good, and more than enough for any of us. They even look pretty darn good! Swap brake pads and holders for better ones on anything below 105 ($40 max) and you get much improved braking performance and feel. Everything else is simply proven mechanicals with fewer rear gears. If you care at all about component weight, then you're gonna have to run up the ladder. I do wish a polished/anodized silver existed with the modern groupsets as I think they can still look good when done right. The painted silver stuff we've gotten looks pretty bad and matches/complements no bike, modern or vintage.

For all of us with Treks from ~1985-1988 with the RD cable routing through the chainstay, I bet just a touch of drill work would make our frames new-era Di2 "compatible" and no one would know/see where the wires go! [laughs in 1985 Trek 620, but then stops because it already has Dura-Ace 9000 and that stuff is gorgeous and works wonderfully]

iab

I have yet to have anyone tell me that a properly tuned friction shifter in the hands of an experienced rider is any worse than than brifters. So there's that.

nlerner

Seems that Microshift has become a major player in mtb and road groups, including 7 speed: https://www.microshift.com

RiddleOfSteel

Have they? I only see the occasional used pair of shifters here and there at a local shop that sells new and (a lot of) used components (at least as far as road groups go). I know Microshift offers their products at a lower cost than comparable Shimano/Campagnolo/SRAM, but they lag in aesthetics and overall build quality. I may like my Dura-Ace of nearly any generation, but I'd get the current/new generation of Sora or Claris before anything Microshift (who still needs to offer a brake caliper set and crankset to complete their groupsets, technically). Again, things might be different in the MTB section of the market, but I don't see them on road builds (I know a couple of BF members have bought and installed their brifters).

DMC707

As a guy who enjoys both, i can attest to this . A friend just purchased a (admittedly not "new" - it had 10 hours on it )2020 Kawasaki KX450X for a hair over 6k.

My new SB-100 build - and after getting pro deals, buddy deals and every other deal i could scrounge up - also cost a hair over 6k . I used XO-1 cranks with XX1 gripshift and derailleurs, wired. Being a custom, i used XTR brakes. I dislike SRAM's brakes, but have heard they are much better than they were in the past

Have fun with the build ! a 165 is a pretty big bike !

squirtdad

speaking for myself only I really like modern running gear on a vintage frame......or a hoped for future custom, lugged steel frame. Threaded stems only but I still will always have at least one Cino ready ride

squirtdad

dave I put it up because of concern of loosing high end modern mechanical drive trains for those who like C&V steel with modern components, which i would bet is a fair portion of of us as it is IMHO a nice combo. That said I am training hard so I can finish my next Cino and maybe go to a more Cino gearing (one year at a time)

iab

And I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't do what you want to do. But the electronic or not discussion started on the 41 a decade ago. I guess after 10 years it moves to C&V? Either way, you can argue better performance from e shifting or it doesn't matter. But the latter argument takes you quickly to no derailleur and riding only fixed. So like every form of this discussion since Grok advocated the use of a granite wheel over an obsidian wheel, the answer is always do whatever floats your boat.

repechage

In a Japan language company, everything.

mstateglfr 

This conversation is still going on? I have listened to long time product managers say something. Take it or leave it at this point.

La Brea Bike

Always a need to find a way to make a lot of new bucks... Best way to do that is convince previous purchasers that their products are vastly inferior to what they are now pedaling...

Schlafen

Just listened to that Cycling Tips podcast about the new Dura Ace and Ultegra 12 speed groups and at the end, one of the speakers relates a story when releasing XTR M970, that some of the test journalists accidentaly, and without realising, had a glimpse at Shimano 12 speed, not mentioning specifically which one, mtb maybe.
XTR M970 was released in 2006 according to Google, that was 12 years before M9100 12 speed and 15 years before R9200 and R8100, bloody hell.

Classtime 

Good point Schlafen wrt Product Life Cycle. If Trek aka Lance Armstrong, had 12 speed wireless bitd, would it have been enough to win w/out peds and blood doping? I hate batteries on my bikes.

Schlafen

Personally, I'm not fussed about Lance and his EPO hiatus, I really enjoy watching the old tours from time to time, more entertaining than current ones that's for sure.

We have to consider the tech, components and training data we have now as built on top of the doping era. There's no escaping that, no matter how big the rug, it doesn't fit underneath it.
This is a side of the game that hasn't been reset after that period. I'm certain Trek and Shimano had plenty of good feedback from Lance and other pro riders regarding the carbon frames they were riding, groupsets, training programs, deep wheels, aero, skinsuits, etc, which helped them and cycling reach the level we enjoy today.
If I myself had a say in any of these big companies, you could bet money on it that my R&D departmend would use doped athletes to this day for testing and developing, that's a no brainer. Not competing obviously, but if not competing the sky is the limit. Not saying that's what they do (wink wink) but looking at the jump in tech from around that period moving forward, it's massive, they are complete idiots if they are not doing it. Just my opinion.

Lazyass

Eh, screw Shimano, I just bought a SRAM Rival group to upgrade my CX bike. If one of these companies were smart they would make one of their mid range groups with an all polished silver option. Even with brand new steel frames the classic look is still popular.

microcord

Ultegra? Not for me, thanks:

mstateglfr 

Do you make all your purchases based on the small exception?



ETA- to be clear, I dont have an Ultegra crank. My two Ultegra shifting bikes have Praxis Zayante cranks because I like the look more, and my 105 shifting bike has a...Praxis Zayante because it allowed for more compact gearing before GRX was created.

microcord

Sorry, I don't follow you. If you're saying that broken cranks are exceptional, well, clearly they're in the minority, but it's an alarmingly large minority.

My two bikes with 21st-century drivetrains both have Tiagra RDs; one has an IRD crankset and FD, the other has a Tokyo San-Esu crankset and 105 FD.

shoota 

My DA crank split right down the seam of the arm. Pretty frustrating.

ThermionicScott 

I can't think too much about bike parts that have failed for someone at some point in the past... I'd be too scared to ride!

https://pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/000.html