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Change early cartridge-bearing hubs from solid to hollow axles

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Change early cartridge-bearing hubs from solid to hollow axles

Old 09-23-22, 07:59 PM
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Charles Wahl
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Change early cartridge-bearing hubs from solid to hollow axles

I don't know whether this belongs in C&V, Mechanics or Mountain Biking forum, but since this is the one I identify with almost to exclusion, I'll start here: I bought a 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper awhile back in almost new condition to refurbish and give to my cousin, whose spouse I had already given a later-model Hard Rock that she had ridden and liked a lot (did some upgrades on that). The Stumpy has Specialized-branded cartridge-bearing hubs with solid axles, and cleaned up beautifully and has already been sent to cuz', who's already enjoying it, but wondered if the hubs could be converted to quick-release. The wheel bearings felt absolutely smooth, so no need to replace them for wear-and-tear reasons.

So, I've come groveling before the C&V community, wondering if anyone has made such a switch. I didn't bother to check the diameter/thread of the axles while it was here, unfortunately, but I presume that they're some reliably standard thing: 9, 9.5 or 10 mm ø with 1.0 mm pitch. The few pictures I've seen of hubs like this suggest that the locknuts work with "cones" that might be close-fit bushings going through the cartridge bearings, and set the side-play -- I harbor hope that to remove the axles, all one would have to do is unscrew the locknuts, rather than getting "specialized" tools and/or press involved.

If anyone can help with their experience, I'd be grateful. Here are a couple photos, and you can see most of the ones I have on a Flickr album
https://www.flickr.com/photos/131757...57714934167376
with the "before" preceding the "after" (not much difference visually, except that I replaced the horrible saddle with something close to the Avocet Touring 1 that Mombat says the bike had originally).


Before


After

Thanks, all!
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Old 09-23-22, 08:17 PM
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Hiya I did exactly what you are contemplating on some alternate wheels on my Mongoose ATB
Only real issue I had was the lack of shoulder on QR axle to help locate cartridge bearings and stop over tightening ?
I used a bit of skinny tube that went inside the hub body and over the qr axle to get around this issue .
This helped locate everything . I guess hubs could be set up without spacer ?
(obligatory pics attached )


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Old 09-23-22, 09:36 PM
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I did this axle swap on my Cannondale SM600 of the same vintage as your bike. No issues at all, same lock nuts and axle nuts reused on chromoly QR axles. Easy swapover. Been riding it this way for over 30 years. I wanted a bike I could break down to fit in my little Honda Civic, and could change a flat and fix a breakdown without having to haul around a 15mm and 14mm wrench.
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Old 09-24-22, 07:39 AM
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reconnaissance Thanks! If you remember: Did the solid axles drop right out when the locknut and shoulder/"cone" nut were removed, or was the axle a press-fit in some way into the inner race of the cartridge bearings?
And: why would one need a 14 mm wrench? All I remember doing to remove/install both wheels was to loosen the outer 15 mm nuts on the solid axles (which in the Stumpy's case came with integral free-turning washers with a nice shape). The axles spun so freely and without palpable play that I never even loosened the black locknuts jammed on the inner shoulder/"cone" nuts; just cleaned up the wheels.

1simplexnut Thank you as well. I'm pretty sure, based on a couple of "broken down" photos I've found of this type of hub, that the innermost nut on the axle has a shoulder that bears on the inner race of the cartridge bearing.
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Old 09-24-22, 08:15 AM
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The axle is easy to remove on the Specialized hubs. Remove the lock nut and cone nut on one side, than tap the axle out with a rubber mallet. It should pop right out. These hubs use a generic axle unlike most of the cartage bearing hubs that have an axle with a shoulder.
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Old 09-24-22, 09:58 AM
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Many 4" adjustable wrenches weigh only an ounce or two and may open to 15 or even 16mm (or filed slightly to do so).

As long as the threads and captured washers on the axle nuts are kept lubricated, the small wrench is more than sufficient to quickly remove and replace the wheel.

I run solid axles (10mm rear, 3/8" front) on my Huffy MTB for added strength, and successfully used the 4" adjustable wrench during seasons that I was having a lot of pinch flats (I've since switched to a DH rear tire, so mo more pinch-flats even at 21psi F & R).

The Specialized/Sansin chromed hex nuts with their captured washers are especially nice, I would buy them!
...And solid axles are stronger/stiffer than hollow ones, which makes life easier on the frame's dropouts.


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Old 09-24-22, 10:07 AM
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The shouldered "cone" on these hubs does not rely on press-fit, it slips free of the bearing unless corrosion has crept in.

One needs to verify their bearing adjustment using thick washers or loose dropouts which are fitted to the axle before the QR lever is secured.
Otherwise, the adjustment will likely tighten too much when the wheel is installed, to the detriment of your bearings!
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Old 09-24-22, 10:38 AM
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brian3069 Thank you; much appreciated. I'll report back when I hear how things have gone.
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Old 09-24-22, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dddd
The shouldered "cone" on these hubs does not rely on press-fit, it slips free of the bearing unless corrosion has crept in.

One needs to verify their bearing adjustment using thick washers or loose dropouts which are fitted to the axle before the QR lever is secured.
Otherwise, the adjustment will likely tighten too much when the wheel is installed, to the detriment of your bearings!
I'm not absolutely certain, but I think what you're saying is "cartridge bearings side play adjustment is important, just as it is for cup-cone bearings; the axle compression induced by using a QR is part of that side play (just as the more minor axle lengthening affects the side play when using solid axles with nuts)" -- correct?
I typically use QR adjustment as the final part of bearing adjustment on my cup-cone hubbed bikes:
a) Adjust as best I can, with just the slightest amount of perceptible side play (in multiple locations around the rotation of the wheel; then
b) adjust the QR so that it just takes this play out, while being "tight enough" -- If not tight enough, then back to a).

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Old 09-24-22, 02:37 PM
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yes. Pushed right out.

Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
reconnaissance Thanks! If you remember: Did the solid axles drop right out when the locknut and shoulder/"cone" nut were removed, or was the axle a press-fit in some way into the inner race of the cartridge bearings?
And: why would one need a 14 mm wrench? All I remember doing to remove/install both wheels was to loosen the outer 15 mm nuts on the solid axles (which in the Stumpy's case came with integral free-turning washers with a nice shape). The axles spun so freely and without palpable play that I never even loosened the black locknuts jammed on the inner shoulder/"cone" nuts; just cleaned up the wheels.

1simplexnut Thank you as well. I'm pretty sure, based on a couple of "broken down" photos I've found of this type of hub, that the innermost nut on the axle has a shoulder that bears on the inner race of the cartridge bearing.
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Old 09-24-22, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
I'm not absolutely certain, but I think what you're saying is "cartridge bearings side play adjustment is important, just as it is for cup-cone bearings; the axle compression induced by using a QR is part of that side play (just as the more minor axle lengthening affects the side play when using solid axles with nuts)" -- correct?
I typically use QR adjustment as the final part of bearing adjustment on my cup-cone hubbed bikes:
a) Adjust as best I can, with just the slightest amount of perceptible side play (in multiple locations around the rotation of the wheel; then
b) adjust the QR so that it just takes this play out, while being "tight enough" -- If not tight enough, then back to a).
I think that you have a good understanding of the whole bearing-adjustment scenario, though I've never really noticed (or considered) any change in bearing adjustment when installing wheels having nutted axles (I set those up with zero play, with a bit of drag).
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Old 09-24-22, 03:54 PM
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Charles Wahl
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Originally Posted by dddd
I've never really noticed (or considered) any change in bearing adjustment when installing wheels having nutted axles (I set those up with zero play, with a bit of drag).
You'd know much better than I; I was only speaking from a theoretical physics/mechanics point of view (since I have no practical experience with nutted axle hubs): no change in dimension due to applied force without some elongation or deformation, albeit very small.
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Old 09-24-22, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
You'd know much better than I; I was only speaking from a theoretical physics/mechanics point of view (since I have no practical experience with nutted axle hubs): no change in dimension due to applied force without some elongation or deformation, albeit very small.
Hi - The reasoning I had for using the tube between the two inner rings of the cartridge bearings was to eliminate the possibility of "cross location " which is not good for the life of a cartridge bearing
Cross location refers to misalignment of the inner and outer rings of the bearing .
Wthout the tube theoretically I could overtighten the axle nuts creating misalignment and undue axial thrust loads on the bearings .

Given the minimal rotatational speeds and loads involved in a bicycle wheel I am probably over thinking it .
While not an qualified engineer , I have about 30 years experience selling /supplying /fitting bearings in an industrial field .

Just my tuppence worth ( or two pennies? )
All good fun !
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Old 09-25-22, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 1simplexnut
Hi - The reasoning I had for using the tube between the two inner rings of the cartridge bearings was to eliminate the possibility of "cross location " which is not good for the life of a cartridge bearing
Cross location refers to misalignment of the inner and outer rings of the bearing .
Wthout the tube theoretically I could overtighten the axle nuts creating misalignment and undue axial thrust loads on the bearings .

Given the minimal rotatational speeds and loads involved in a bicycle wheel I am probably over thinking it .
While not an qualified engineer , I have about 30 years experience selling /supplying /fitting bearings in an industrial field .

Just my tuppence worth ( or two pennies? )
All good fun !
Sorry, when I read your first post above, I couldn't figure out what you meant by "lack of shoulder on QR axle to help locate cartridge bearings and stop over tightening", and maybe I still don't: do you mean a fixed-length piece of tube free-sliding on the axle between the bearings? If so, doesn't that mean installation of this before one of the bearings is pressed into the hub? How did you determine tube's correct length, without having both bearings seated in the hub to measure, and how did you make such a measurement?

My guess is that the usual practice is simply to adjust the external shoulder nuts and locknuts so that there's just a tiny bit of side play (less for a solid axle, and maybe a tad more for a QR axle to allow for QR compression) and no binding felt when spinning the axle in the hub. Am I wrong?
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Old 09-25-22, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl
Sorry, when I read your first post above, I couldn't figure out what you meant by "lack of shoulder on QR axle to help locate cartridge bearings and stop over tightening", and maybe I still don't: do you mean a fixed-length piece of tube free-sliding on the axle between the bearings? If so, doesn't that mean installation of this before one of the bearings is pressed into the hub? How did you determine tube's correct length, without having both bearings seated in the hub to measure, and how did you make such a measurement?

My guess is that the usual practice is simply to adjust the external shoulder nuts and locknuts so that there's just a tiny bit of side play (less for a solid axle, and maybe a tad more for a QR axle to allow for QR compression) and no binding felt when spinning the axle in the hub. Am I wrong?
Hiya ,

"fixed-length piece of tube free-sliding on the axle between the bearings" . - Yes -
"doesn't that mean installation of this before one of the bearings is pressed into the hub" -Yes -

"My guess is that the usual practice is simply to adjust the external shoulder nuts and locknuts so that there's just a tiny bit of side play (less for a solid axle, and maybe a tad more for a QR axle to allow for QR compression) and no binding felt when spinning the axle in the hub. Am I wrong?" - No- you are not wrong -

Nothing wrong with adjusting things by feel , With my method it is pretty near impossible to over tighten the nuts (idiot proof -me being the idiot )
Also I guess some hubs may not have the room internally for a spacer as I used.

From an industrial bearing experience view point any sort of of excessive axial load will shorten the life of a bearing .
In saying that a very small percentage of bearings ever get to the end of their theoretical life .
Normally something else kills them before they actually wear out .
Contamination and impact damage are the major causes of premature failure .
Very relevant in bicycles I reckon .

All good fun , and as I said earlier I am probably overthinking it
HAve fun and let us know how you get on .


Measured the distance in the hub with depth gauge bit on vernier calipers . (the long bit that sticks out the back when you open them up)
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