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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

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The seat forward on old road-bikes thread....

Old 05-16-22, 05:02 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
And here I thought it would make the bar dangerously slippery.
The full length cable housing using duct tape for stops is another interesting and unique "efficiency trick."
No, if you look at the railings in people showers, in medical facilities etc. that are all bare steel. Maybe some people have a big problem with sweaty hands or something, I never did. I always thought that my skin against metal had very good grip. Also that is not duct tape holding the cables, that is electrical tape. Most old low-end ten-speeds had full-length cable housings, the tape was in the garage, cheap and got the job done, when I want to ride, I am not going to put it off for something so minor. The tape has well over a thousand miles on it, I recommend Scotch Super-33-plus, if you are bucks-up you can get Scotch 88 which has a wider heat-range specification. Originally the bike had some clips, but they were probably plastic and probably were lost long ago;


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Old 05-16-22, 05:50 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Most old low-end ten-speeds had full-length cable housings.
Maybe for department store bikes. The nicest department store bikes were put together with a little more thought.
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Old 05-16-22, 06:04 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by beng1
Also that is not duct tape holding the cables, that is electrical tape.
Can't believe you didn't pick that, SurferRosa
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Old 05-16-22, 06:10 AM
  #29  
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"Huffy precision engineering." There are three words I never thought would be placed in the same sentence.
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Old 05-16-22, 06:31 AM
  #30  
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Seat forward always reminds me of bikes like the 1925 Appelhans track bike at Classic Cycle US. Love the copper plating.

Appelhans Track Bike
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Old 05-16-22, 11:34 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by albrt
I am about the same age as you and I never liked toe clips either. Recently I started riding more, and I realized that they really do add some efficiency. I found some old plastic ones with fairly big toes and removed the straps, and it gives me a decent percentage of the benefit while still being able to get my feet off the pedals pretty quickly.
I am pretty sure I tore my ACL late last fall when I lost the front wheel of a bike turning it too sharply on wet pavement. It was a mountain-bike and my right foot was trapped on the pedal by the toe-clip/strap setup and my right knee hit the blacktop first with my 215 pounds behind it. I got up and rode home but could not bend the knee much for a few months or it would spasm and pull itself shut with me screaming, and I would have to hook it on something and pull it straight. My calf did not feel like it was moving with my thigh after it happened. I don't think I tore it 100% but really weakened it. No sense in going to the hospital as for a partially torn ACL it just has to heal over six to nine months, all the way torn has no option but surgery. I eased into riding a stationary bike over the winter months, then gingerly got back on the road. I am riding well again, but surely not as good as I was before, my right leg is skinnier than my left, maybe over the summer I will get it all back if I don't fall on it again. Toe clips are a help on steep hills while mountain-biking, and they may make you faster in a race, but for recreational riding I am not a fan of them. I had Time clips 25 years ago and crashed with them and they would release, but I hated wearing the shoes with clips, they are not comfortable to wear for anything but cycling, and of course they are expensive.
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Old 05-16-22, 11:54 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by beng1
It's ironic how the pictured couple is wearing luxurious clothing, yet buys the, shall we say, "disposable" bike to ride, or to have their child ride.

And that sure doesn't look like the inside of any store that sold Huffies.
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Old 05-16-22, 12:00 PM
  #33  
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Is that bike covered in spaghetti??
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Old 05-17-22, 09:37 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by beng1
With a laid-back seat-tube, if you are pedaling hard, you are pushing yourself off the back of the seat, it is like a recumbent with no backrest, and you can not use all of your weight on the pedals.

With the seat forward, or with a steep seat-tube and your weight over the pedals, when pedaling hard you are pushing yourself up instead of back, and the extra weight over the pedals means you can press on them harder if you are in shape and have the muscle to do so.

Also with the handlebar closer to the bottom-bracket and seat, a rider can have more force on the bars transfering to the pedals, where a rider reaching far ahead to the bars will not be able to use them for as much leverage.

As far as speed and power are concerned, it seems to me that having a steeper effecting seat-tube angle is better, and I think true racing bicycles are built that way. The poor-man's answer to not having a new racing bicycle, is to just move the seat forwards. This is my experiment, as I get in shape this summer riding season I will see how fast I can average over an old local time-trial course. I think despite my age and having had a heart-attack/surgery last year, I will be able to go over 20mph on the yellow bike as it is.
without clips and straps, the rpm is just going to be slower. Totally counter to "I want to go fast"
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Old 05-17-22, 10:55 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by repechage
without clips and straps, the rpm is just going to be slower. Totally counter to "I want to go fast."
And how do you keep your foot on the pedal if you hit an unforeseen bump? Riding is far more dangerous without foot retention.
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Old 05-17-22, 12:37 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
And how do you keep your foot on the pedal if you hit an unforeseen bump? Riding is far more dangerous without foot retention.
The degree of foot retention using unsecured or "flat" pedals can vary, with some setups providing much better retention qualities than others.

Pedals that are relatively tall and/or short front-to-rear can actually roll forward under the rider's foot, causing on one occasion a crash when my foot slipped forward off my new Stumpjumper Sport's pedal and striking the ground in front of it.

Flexible-soled shoes have the ability to conform and effectively wrap around the top surface of the pedals, making inadvertant "disengagement" far (edited) LESS likely (though coming at the expense of foot comfort on longer rides that involve hard pedaling uphill).

Today's lower-profiled, spiked and longer (front-to-rear) "flat" pedals are used by a lot of mtb riders, even in competition, so seem entirely viable to me. Our local hard-riding road bike club has a couple who use such pedals and are "competitive" with other riders on varied recreational rides into the foothills.
Like many other equipment changes, rider adaptation can be required in order to recover full proficiency using newly-changed parts or configuration.

Different models of clipless pedals offer differing ranges of retention force adjustment, so for riders new to clipless pedals, it can be advantageous to select pedals which allow for the greatest degree of adjustment in the "looser" direction. At some point of looseness, the length of the rider's foot (from ankle to cleat) acts as enough of a torque/lever arm such that merely moving one's leg laterally to the outside can effect enough torque at the shoe to clip out of the pedal binding automatically.

Last edited by dddd; 05-23-22 at 06:10 PM.
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Old 05-17-22, 08:03 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
And how do you keep your foot on the pedal if you hit an unforeseen bump? Riding is far more dangerous without foot retention.
Most riding bikes do not have "foot retention", I never had a bike with any sort of thing until I was in my mid-30s. If someone has a problem with "unforeseen" bumps and keeping their feet on pedals then I agree bicycling is dangerous for them and they should switch to walking.
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Old 05-17-22, 08:05 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by repechage
without clips and straps, the rpm is just going to be slower. Totally counter to "I want to go fast"
It does not counter anything at all, because I am interested in seeing how fast I can go without clips or straps.
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Old 05-17-22, 08:10 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by dddd
It's ironic how the pictured couple is wearing luxurious clothing, yet buys the, shall we say, "disposable" bike to ride, or to have their child ride. And that sure doesn't look like the inside of any store that sold Huffies.
And today, fifty years after my Huffy road-bike rolled out of the factory, it has not been disposed of, and very many times I have enjoyed blowing off riders wearing "luxurious" clothing on bikes that cost thousands of dollars. Ironic..........
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Old 05-18-22, 10:11 AM
  #40  
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These are all cool stories

I also love to drope the hamer when i see other guys' (and gals) with luxurious clothing

But i think i will get back to the Johnny Depp/ Amber Heard saga now



Last edited by DMC707; 05-18-22 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 05-18-22, 11:10 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by beng1
And today, fifty years after my Huffy road-bike rolled out of the factory, it has not been disposed of, and very many times I have enjoyed blowing off riders wearing "luxurious" clothing on bikes that cost thousands of dollars. Ironic..........
Come on now...You may have blown them off, but did you blow by them? Maybe when they were stopped by the side of the road enjoying the view and a sip of water? Because your Huffy isn't geared anywhere near what a top-end racing bike is. It may not even be competitive with a good mountain bike. Might as well tell me you "blew off" a Ferrari in your 1966 stock VW bug.
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Old 05-18-22, 12:38 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Come on now...You may have blown them off, but did you blow by them? Maybe when they were stopped by the side of the road enjoying the view and a sip of water? Because your Huffy isn't geared anywhere near what a top-end racing bike is. It may not even be competitive with a good mountain bike. Might as well tell me you "blew off" a Ferrari in your 1966 stock VW bug.

All he has to do is dial it up to 400 watts


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Old 05-19-22, 02:47 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by beng1
It does not counter anything at all, because I am interested in seeing how fast I can go without clips or straps.
lacking retention will undercut your performance and reduce muscle use by 25-35%
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Old 05-19-22, 02:52 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by smd4
Come on now...You may have blown them off, but did you blow by them? Maybe when they were stopped by the side of the road enjoying the view and a sip of water? Because your Huffy isn't geared anywhere near what a top-end racing bike is. It may not even be competitive with a good mountain bike. Might as well tell me you "blew off" a Ferrari in your 1966 stock VW bug.
??? It has the standard 14-28 rear freewheel that almost every ten-speed bike ever made has, and it has a 52-tooth big chainwheel on the front, so you do the math. I usually ride around town on the big front chainwheel and I think the 19-tooth wheel in back, which is 8th gear. That is good for 19.2mph at 88rpm at the pedals, and you have two gears higher than that to go...... These are my calculations for 8th gear I made one day last year after I did a 12.5 mile lap of one old time-trial course at 19.2mph and wanted to see what my pedal rpm was Typo in the below figures is the 84" wheel diameter, it is supposed to be Circumfrence;

Last edited by beng1; 05-24-22 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Correcting Typo
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Old 05-19-22, 03:35 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by beng1
??? It has the standard 14-28 rear freewheel that almost every ten-speed bike ever made has, and it has a 52-tooth big chainwheel on the front, so you do the math. I usually ride around town on the big front chainwheel and I think the 19-tooth wheel in back, which is 8th gear. That is good for 19.2mph at 88rpm at the pedals, and you have two gears higher than that to go...... These are my calculations for 8th gear I made one day last year after I did a 12.5 mile lap of one old time-trial course at 19.2mph and wanted to see what my pedal rpm was;
when I was in junior high school, the bike I rode to school, a Sting-Ray with a 39x17 and 20" but with toe clips and straps was the nemesis of a guy on a fresh Raleigh International where he removed the toe clips and straps. He could not drop me and I always took a shot and blitzed by him before arrival at school. Of course he did not ask how much I rode, 250mi a week on my road race bike if he had asked. He thought the 52x14 was cool.
my race gear limit at the time was 44x14.

52x18 is about a 78" gear.
I see guys in the big ring all the time, usually a 53. Often with their hips rotating side to side too. I ask how much their knees and saddle, lower back hurts... " how do you know?"
I can see it. Goes with the knees swinging out too. These are guys with "clipless" pedals too.
poor blighters.

Last edited by repechage; 05-19-22 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 05-19-22, 09:03 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by repechage
lacking retention will undercut your performance and reduce muscle use by 25-35%
A fact someone interested in going fast without clips/straps would not care about, and not really factual anyway.
The only time a power increase of 25% or more is realized is in very short sprints by very serious cyclists. At any long distance there is not enough difference in efficiency between having or not having retention for an amateur to worry about, it is less than ten percent for the serious, and for amateurs probably less than five percent.
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Old 05-19-22, 09:09 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by repechage
52x18 is about a 78" gear.I see guys in the big ring all the time, usually a 53. Often with their hips rotating side to side too. I ask how much their knees and saddle, lower back hurts... " how do you know?"
I can see it. Goes with the knees swinging out too. These are guys with "clipless" pedals too.
poor blighters.
As stated, I am using a 52x19 most of the time, and if you looked at my paper I am pedaling at 88rpm with those gears to go just a little over 19mph, and nobody who is spinning that fast is straining their knees or any other joints, only their heart and lungs.
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Old 05-20-22, 06:47 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by beng1
??? It has the standard 14-28 rear freewheel that almost every ten-speed bike ever made has, and it has a 52-tooth big chainwheel on the front, so you do the math. I usually ride around town on the big front chainwheel and I think the 19-tooth wheel in back, which is 8th gear. That is good for 19.2mph at 88rpm at the pedals, and you have two gears higher than that to go...... These are my calculations for 8th gear I made one day last year after I did a 12.5 mile lap of one old time-trial course at 19.2mph and wanted to see what my pedal rpm was;
You lost me when you wrote "84" wheel diameter." Have fun on your "standard" 14-28.
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Old 05-20-22, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by StanSeven
yep. A forward saddle position uses quads more while rear position incorporates glutes and hamstrings more. It really boils down to personal body strength and how you want to ride.
Before steep seat angle "triathlon geometry" bikes like Quintana Roo were first developed for the triathlete market, steel road bikes with traditional geometry were commonly seen with saddles moved as forward as possible in triathlons, especially if the rider was not an experienced road racer. As stated above, triathletes who didn't have a road racing background tended to be quad dominant and use of aero bars (quickly adopted by the triathlete market) tended to pull the rider forward quite a bit. It was so common in the late 80s to see the fastest guys with aero bars riding with their 5-hole on the nose of the saddle, the joke was why use a saddle at all when all you need is to just pad the top of your seat post. Then you could also save some weight which was another big deal then.

However, I recall quad dominant riders being called "mashers" and experienced roadies with a more balanced use of hamstrings/glutes/quads being thought of as spinning smoothly.
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Old 05-20-22, 07:19 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by beng1
No, if you look at the railings in people showers, in medical facilities etc. that are all bare steel. Maybe some people have a big problem with sweaty hands or something, I never did. I always thought that my skin against metal had very good grip. Also that is not duct tape holding the cables, that is electrical tape. Most old low-end ten-speeds had full-length cable housings, the tape was in the garage, cheap and got the job done, when I want to ride, I am not going to put it off for something so minor. The tape has well over a thousand miles on it, I recommend Scotch Super-33-plus, if you are bucks-up you can get Scotch 88 which has a wider heat-range specification. Originally the bike had some clips, but they were probably plastic and probably were lost long ago;


I had one of these BITD when I was in the 8-11 year old range.
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