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Weird Headset lockring w/ 3 notches

Old 08-12-06, 10:10 PM
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Weird Headset lockring w/ 3 notches

I never overhauled my headset because it's never given me any problems, but due to this bike's age I thought I would. Usually you remove the locking top nut, then pull off the keyed washer and unscrew the top cup. Well here is a picture of my '82 Miyata 310 and i'm guessing the headset is Suntour or Shimano -- no visible markings yet revealed.





It has three evenly spaced notches and does not appear to be keyed. When I go to slide it off, it does not budge in any direction. I even gently clamped it with leather jawed channel locks and wiggled it without results.

Any ideas? This design is also missing the wrench flats for the adjusting cup. It has a knurled ring on the cup like some threadless headsets. It also has pointed locking teeth you can see in the first photo, maybe to replace the keyed washer? Has anybody run into this design before?
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Old 08-12-06, 10:16 PM
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This is just an older style headset, that I THINK was made by Tange. That lockring with the three notches is exactly that, a lockring. It's threaded on to the steerer tube, not slid on like a "normal" spacer. The proper tool would most likely be extremely difficult to track down, but you should be able to use a lockring wrench that is made for a BB lockring. Also, be aware that your headset may very well have loose ball bearings rather than ones contained in a cage, thus they will fall out all over the floor when you remove the cups. Be prepared to catch them!!
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Old 08-12-06, 10:27 PM
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I've tried my Park HCW-13 BB wrench and its so huge that the tooth disengages before the rounded edge of the tool can even contact the locking. Fudge.

Oh and I always end up bending the bearing retainers somehow when popping out the old bearings and putting in new ones, so I usually use loose bb's anyway.
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Old 08-12-06, 10:35 PM
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my BB pin spanner doesn't work either...
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Old 08-12-06, 10:54 PM
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well....shoot. I guess you could do a couple of things here. One is buy an new headset and then use a pair of pliers to get the lockring off. If you ruin the headset, at least you'd have a new one to put in. And if the pliers work, just return the headset...although I hate returning stuff..lol. But really, that entire headset is steel, so wrenching on it a bit should'nt hurt too much. Another little trick is to take a large flat screwdriver and gentley tap one of the notches until it is loose enough to turn by hand. I've certainly used this method on a few old BB's with no ill results.
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Old 08-12-06, 10:58 PM
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Bike Tools etc has this "Small Hook Spanner." It looks promising. I'll ask the staff.



this looks good too:
https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...tem_id=HZ-C205
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Old 08-12-06, 11:14 PM
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It looks like a copy of a Stronlight P-3. I wouldn't surprise me if it was a Tange. They made copys of High end european headsets. I have one that looks almost exactly like a Stronglight Competition.

Is that a setscrew I'm seeing to the left of the notch in the top picture? If so, you definitely need to loosen it. The ring with the teeth is not threaded and needs to come straight up. Sometimes you can loosen things up by tightening the "adjusting cup" slightly. (I think it's technically a cone.)

Don't reuse retainers. Always use loose balls, especially in used headsets. It changes the spacing of the balls and delays the onset of indexing.

Good luck!
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Old 08-13-06, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dirtdrop
The ring with the teeth is not threaded and needs to come straight up.
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
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Old 08-13-06, 04:55 AM
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Incredible, just incredible.

I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design. Then I see that you're twenty one y/o and it falls into place.
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Old 08-13-06, 05:20 AM
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A hammer and a small punch set in one of the notches should tap it loose enough to unscrew.
If you're a barbarian a big pair of channel locks will work, too.
Top
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Old 08-13-06, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Noam Zane
I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design.
The headset in question isn't "conventionally threaded". I've worked on a lot of conventional threaded headsets over the past 20+ years and never came across one with a separate lock ring below the top nut so this design is a bit unusual.

I agree there appears to be a set screw in the notched ring that must be loosened before the ring can be unthreaded. The punch and mallet technique works well for removing notched lockrings if the right spanner isn't available.
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Old 08-13-06, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rat_factory
Bike Tools etc has this "Small Hook Spanner." It looks promising. I'll ask the staff.
the hozan BB lockring tool has a smaller spanner on one side for this purpose. headsets like these are very common on 80s japanese bikes, although i don't know who made them, tange or hatta i guess. my theory on the design is that you can fudge with brake cable stops or reflector brackets without readjusting the headset. nice in theory, but can be a real pain to adjust sometimes.

i've never seen one of these with a set screw.
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Old 08-13-06, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
The headset in question isn't "conventionally threaded". I've worked on a lot of conventional threaded headsets over the past 20+ years and never came across one with a separate lock ring below the top nut so this design is a bit unusual.
I have that very headset in front of me, stripped off a Miyata 312. The lock ring is indeed threaded, and does not have a setscrew.
Top
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Old 08-13-06, 07:51 AM
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There is no set screw. This is not some exotic bit of obscure enginneering. It is a very common and straight forward style of headset. For those youngsters encountering it for the first time just a bare minimum of mechanical aptitude is required to figure it out. The tool needed for a non-cob-job is a basic small hook wrench that belongs in the toolbox of anyone who considers themselves a semi-competent bicycle mechanic.
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Old 08-13-06, 08:41 AM
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Someone missed their conjugal visit.
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Old 08-13-06, 09:02 AM
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I recently removed a lockring like that. I used my standard lockring wrench, and the biggest flathead screwdriver I could find. The wrench is too big of course- the tooth comes out of the notch before
you can get any leverage on it. What I did was put the side-edge of the screwdriver in one of the other
notches to give the wrench something to push against while the tooth still stayed in.

I know its kind of a rigged way to do it, but it worked for me.
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Old 08-13-06, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Moose
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
No, Dirtdrop is talking about the ring with *teeth* which is just below the notched ring. The ring with 3 notches IS threaded, with no setscrew, and the ring below that has those accordion-shaped teeth which engage the top of the bearing cup race--and THAT ring is NOT threaded, so it lifts straight up, and then the cup race spins off. I have this exact headset on a 1982 Univega Sportour.
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Old 08-13-06, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Moose
Nope, it is definitely threaded.
How would it be possible to turn the ring without disengaging the teeth?
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Old 08-13-06, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Noam Zane
This is not some exotic bit of obscure enginneering. It is a very common and straight forward style of headset.
Perhaps it is a common design but I've worked on a bunch of Tange, Shimano and similar headsets since the mid-'80's and never came across this particular design with it's lockring.

As to the toothed ring, I have a Tange headset on an late-'80's Trek that has the same toothed ring that engages matching teeth in the top race of the headset just like that shown in the picture above. The ring is not threaded but has an internal tab that goes into the vertical keyway in the fork steerer. The tab keeps it from rotating but it is removed by pulling it straight up.
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Old 08-13-06, 11:07 AM
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That's how the older Stronglights work. They have a flat instead of a keyway on French bikes, of course. I like them because the teeth lock in your adjustment. They can't be adjusted as finely as a standard headset, though.
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Old 08-13-06, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Noam Zane
Incredible, just incredible.

I'm marvelling that someone that can have a stable of bikes and claim to love wrenching yet is stymied by a common, conventionally threaded headset design. Then I see that you're twenty one y/o and it falls into place.
Yes I have a stable of bikes because I love to ride. When did I claim I love wrenching? I do what needs to be done the best way I know how and now I will say I enjoy it. I am 'stymied' because I personally have never seen this type before. And because I don't have a 'small hook spanner' in my 3 years worth of tools I am not compitent?

So you looked at my profile to see how old I am? I see you have no personal info posted because you must protect yourself from such attacks. Good job making yourself feel superior to someone who is not afraid to ask questions. Last time I checked thats what Bikeforums was for. You're a big, big man.

As far as I'm concerned you are a 12 year old that talks out of his arse.

So anyway, there is no setscrew. That is an optical illusion.

I'm still waiting on a reply from Bike Tools, then I believe I wil buy the Park spanner.
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Old 08-13-06, 03:08 PM
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Some people think their advanced age gives them the right to be rude and obnoxious.
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Old 08-13-06, 03:35 PM
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And some people think their young years excuse them from a minimal attempt to think things out for themselves. Instead they run to an online forum for some bad advice from similarly able individuals.
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Old 08-13-06, 03:43 PM
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The pointed teeth on the buttom of the spacer allow you to index the headset when you adjust it. The spacer is keyed into the slot at the back of the fork. The hook spanner as shown by rat factory is what you need. If you have a hook spanner that is too big you can insert a spacer like a flat screwdriver blade about half way round the C to get a better purchase on the slot.
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Old 08-13-06, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by lawkd
No, Dirtdrop is talking about the ring with *teeth* which is just below the notched ring. The ring with 3 notches IS threaded, with no setscrew, and the ring below that has those accordion-shaped teeth which engage the top of the bearing cup race--and THAT ring is NOT threaded, so it lifts straight up, and then the cup race spins off. I have this exact headset on a 1982 Univega Sportour.
Well then in that case he's right that is not threaded, my apologies...I didn't think we were concerned with that part.
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