Bicycle / Pedestrian Accidents
12-16-19, 02:00 PM
#26
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Just to reiterate. I was not asking for tips on how to avoid getting into an accident with a pedestrian. Nor was my intent to give people the opportunity for sanctimonious judgement of my riding behavior. It was to gain insight into the legal ramifications of such collisions.
12-16-19, 02:12 PM
#27
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Not in this case at least. I am guessing the answer is how much are you able to spend on a lawyer.
12-16-19, 03:18 PM
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Well this went just as I expected.
12-16-19, 04:00 PM
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This thread with all it's purse swinging is the very reason I avoid MUPs 
Last edited by nomadmax; 12-17-19 at 05:49 AM.
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12-16-19, 04:07 PM
#30
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Just to reiterate. I was not asking for tips on how to avoid getting into an accident with a pedestrian. Nor was my intent to give people the opportunity for sanctimonious judgement of my riding behavior. It was to gain insight into the legal ramifications of such collisions.
In boat accidents and auto accidents that go to civil litigation, fault is most often apportioned. I suspect It's the same with bike on pedestrian crashes. While every path I have ever ridden has signs that indicate pedestrians have the right of way, that does not absolve them of their responsibility to behave predictably and responsibly. A standard of reasonableness is pervasive in our civil and criminal courts.
Here's the way I look at it from a human decency standpoint and from the standpoint of wanting to protect myself from liability. Like you, I know that pedestrians are prone to wheel around without looking. Given that, I think the most reasonable way to pass from behind is to slow to a speed that would likely allow me to react in time to avoid collision, announce my pass and give as wide a berth as practicable. I'd want to be able to tell a civil trial jury that's what I did if something went wrong. Even if I were apportioned only 10% of the fault of an accident, if it resulted in hospitalization of the other party, the bills could mount quickly.
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12-16-19, 04:19 PM
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In boat accidents and auto accidents that go to civil litigation, fault is most often apportioned. I suspect It's the same with bike on pedestrian crashes. While every path I have ever ridden has signs that indicate pedestrians have the right of way, that does not absolve them of their responsibility to behave predictably and responsibly. A standard of reasonableness is pervasive in our civil and criminal courts.
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12-16-19, 04:21 PM
#32
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When riding a bicycle you slow down to a walking pace or similar speed whenever you're passing someone who is a pedestrian. It works well to do so with other bicyclists too as they may suddenly swerve in order to avoid something.
That's why I avoid MUP (rail-trails) hereabouts when there are many others on them.
Cheers
That's why I avoid MUP (rail-trails) hereabouts when there are many others on them.
Cheers
12-16-19, 04:23 PM
#33
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I was not asking for tips on how to avoid getting into an accident with a pedestrian. Nor was my intent to give people the opportunity for sanctimonious judgement of my riding behavior. It was to gain insight into the legal ramifications of such collisions."
You have NO IDEA of my riding habits or my deference to pedestrians. You just sound angry and stupid.
You have NO IDEA of my riding habits or my deference to pedestrians. You just sound angry and stupid.
Cheers
Last edited by StanSeven; 12-16-19 at 09:27 PM.
12-16-19, 04:32 PM
#34
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let's say if OP were to hit the jogger and this case ended up in a civil litigation...
OP would be asked, "Did you slow down and give room to the jogger?"
OP's answer: "No I did not slow down because I think it's absurd to slow down when there's only one jogger on an 8 foot wide path".
Yep just the kinda answer OP's lawyer is looking for to absolve his client
OP would be asked, "Did you slow down and give room to the jogger?"
OP's answer: "No I did not slow down because I think it's absurd to slow down when there's only one jogger on an 8 foot wide path".
Yep just the kinda answer OP's lawyer is looking for to absolve his client
12-16-19, 04:49 PM
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I have read that in any crash involving a cyclist and motorist it is the responsibility of the driver to prove that he is not at fault. I would assume it is similar with a pedestrian and a cyclist.
But yes, slow the hell down when passing pedestrians on an MUP. It's frustrating at times when they are wearing earphones and seemingly completely oblivious to anyone else around them. You still gotta avoid them. That's your responsibility as the faster moving one.
But yes, slow the hell down when passing pedestrians on an MUP. It's frustrating at times when they are wearing earphones and seemingly completely oblivious to anyone else around them. You still gotta avoid them. That's your responsibility as the faster moving one.
12-16-19, 04:58 PM
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12-16-19, 05:26 PM
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Bicycle / Pedestrian Accidents
On a few of these “cyclocentric” threads about MUPS, I have posted:
I ride the MUP's a lot. It is shocking to me the number of runners i see do a u-turn and run the other direction with out first looking over their shoulder to see if a bike is coming...
Most traffic rules state that the entity being overtaken has the right of way. If you are the one doing the passing and the passee does something stupid that causes you to cream them, expect the law to come down on their side and not yours.
We frequently walk together at a local park also known for its, er...energetic cyclists. During one walk I was on the verge of reaching for her hand for a friendly squeeze when one of those guys zipped right between us with no warning. No telling what damage could have occurred.
We frequently walk together at a local park also known for its, er...energetic cyclists. During one walk I was on the verge of reaching for her hand for a friendly squeeze when one of those guys zipped right between us with no warning. No telling what damage could have occurred.
If we ride often enough on MUPs we've all seen...wannabe racers riding too fast for conditions, sometimes two abreast, sometimes in mini-pelotons and not giving any consideration to other users -- slower cyclists, old folks walking with canes or walkers, families with strollers and toddlers and dogs on 50 yard retractable non-leashes (the dogs too), etc.
That's life on the multi-use path. Always been that way. Always will be. It's just the nature of the thing…
Jerks are gonna jerk. But most folks are pretty cool about using the MUP. I prefer to keep the latter in mind
That's life on the multi-use path. Always been that way. Always will be. It's just the nature of the thing…
Jerks are gonna jerk. But most folks are pretty cool about using the MUP. I prefer to keep the latter in mind
…My own thought is that a MUP is not so much a commuter route, or training venue, but a pastoral park, where people can enjoy themselves without too many worries, and needn’t be always vigilant, as is a cyclist on the Road.
A few years ago I went on a walking tour of the Boston’s Emerald Necklace park system designed by the great 19th century landscape architect Frederic Law Olmsted with the concept of a Promenade in mind.
According to the Park Ranger, it was planned “to take a leisurely walk, ride, or drive in public, especially to meet or be seen by others” (Oxford Dictionary).The strollers would be dressed in their best Sunday clothes, and running and horses (and ? bicycles) would be discouraged.…
My own Golden Rule of Cycling is “Do unto the Pedestrians, as you would have the Cagers do unto you.”
A few years ago I went on a walking tour of the Boston’s Emerald Necklace park system designed by the great 19th century landscape architect Frederic Law Olmsted with the concept of a Promenade in mind.
According to the Park Ranger, it was planned “to take a leisurely walk, ride, or drive in public, especially to meet or be seen by others” (Oxford Dictionary).The strollers would be dressed in their best Sunday clothes, and running and horses (and ? bicycles) would be discouraged.…
My own Golden Rule of Cycling is “Do unto the Pedestrians, as you would have the Cagers do unto you.”
IMO the vast majority of pedestrians on a MUP / Bikepath are more likely motorists rather than cyclists, and do not share the opinion that they [the pedestrians] do not belong on the Path
So I don’t expect pedestrians to show the same respect to cyclists, as we have to show toward cars i.e. “share the road.” Especially since those users likely paid more [in aggregate] to construct the Path as their refuge from driving.
So why should cyclists, likely the minority of users, take over these public spaces?
So I don’t expect pedestrians to show the same respect to cyclists, as we have to show toward cars i.e. “share the road.” Especially since those users likely paid more [in aggregate] to construct the Path as their refuge from driving.
So why should cyclists, likely the minority of users, take over these public spaces?
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-16-19 at 05:37 PM. Reason: added quote by Tombaatar
12-16-19, 05:27 PM
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BTW...I got an A- in Torts in law school.
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12-16-19, 06:16 PM
#40
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Not a bike thing but I think you'll get my point. How unpredictable is having a car drop from the sky into your lane while you were driving at interstate freeway speed? I've had it happen. What actually occurred was that the car was traveling on a frontage road atop an embankment parallel to my path of travel, the driver lost control and the vehicle plunged off the bluff tumbling down into my lane, landing on its wheels. My car was the first to approach and I managed to avoid colliding with it. Of course the car didn't literally drop from the sky but it sure as hell looked like it, and it happened FAST.
Ya gotta be prepared.
Last edited by thumpism; 12-16-19 at 06:22 PM.
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12-16-19, 06:53 PM
#41
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The speed limit applies to electric vehicles. There's no way that particular provision can be read to apply to a pedal-only bicycle. Note the difference between (1-3) and (4) in that regard.
Also note that pedestrians are not required by this statute to keep to the right of the path.
Also note that pedestrians are not required by this statute to keep to the right of the path.
Good catch, I assumed it mentioned all like most of the other sections. I've never seen any posted speed limit on any MUP around here. And trust me the peds can't even keep a straight line much less one side or the other.
12-16-19, 08:06 PM
#42
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Again. Specifically. I do not care to read your opinion of safe passing procedures or your opinion on my presumed behavior.
Thank you to those that gave me a thoughtful response to my question.
Thank you to those that gave me a thoughtful response to my question.
12-16-19, 08:23 PM
#44
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Do you ride the Braeswood(sp?) Trails? I used to live in Houston and used them to commute from Willowbend Blvd to just inside the loop 610 at South Main for work and also to go to U of Houston. The bridge trolls were worrisome at times but a lowered shoulder did the trick! I had a ped spit on me once! He didn't know I was coming around (couldn't hear due to headphones). He was apologetic as heck but it was still gross.
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12-16-19, 08:43 PM
#45
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Do you ride the Braeswood(sp?) Trails? I used to live in Houston and used them to commute from Willowbend Blvd to just inside the loop 610 at South Main for work and also to go to U of Houston. The bridge trolls were worrisome at times but a lowered shoulder did the trick! I had a ped spit on me once! He didn't know I was coming around (couldn't hear due to headphones). He was apologetic as heck but it was still gross.
12-16-19, 09:10 PM
#46
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12-16-19, 09:31 PM
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I’m late with this but there were several posts from the afternoon with insults. Those were just deleted. Just another reminder with A&S - there are lots of heated discussions and arguments here, which is fine. But no insults. If you can’t make statements without insults, don’t bother posting. You will get infractions.
12-16-19, 09:43 PM
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Do you ride the Braeswood(sp?) Trails? I used to live in Houston and used them to commute from Willowbend Blvd to just inside the loop 610 at South Main for work and also to go to U of Houston. The bridge trolls were worrisome at times but a lowered shoulder did the trick! I had a ped spit on me once! He didn't know I was coming around (couldn't hear due to headphones). He was apologetic as heck but it was still gross.
Cheers
12-17-19, 05:07 AM
#49
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Maybe I didn't state it clearly. If you are passing someone on a path don't assume they will necessarily hold their line (cyclist or pedestrian). Slow down while passing and be prepared to stop if they do a sudden move in your direction.
you made your point clearly enough, i just think in general the statement "plan for the unpredictable" is absurd.
Just to reiterate. I was not asking for tips on how to avoid getting into an accident with a pedestrian. Nor was my intent to give people the opportunity for sanctimonious judgement of my riding behavior.
It was to gain insight into the legal ramifications of such collisions.
It was to gain insight into the legal ramifications of such collisions.
In all fairness, I don't think there's anyone who's been riding for a long time, who hasn't at some time (or many times) ridden in that zone where the only thing separating us from disaster is favorable alignment of the stars. (Note the "us" rather than "him")
We all take chances and make mistakes, but fortunately life is "organized" with plenty of forgiveness. In my experience the difference between disaster and "whew, that was close" is millimeters and microseconds, and not anything we can take credit for.
We all take chances and make mistakes, but fortunately life is "organized" with plenty of forgiveness. In my experience the difference between disaster and "whew, that was close" is millimeters and microseconds, and not anything we can take credit for.
It really is not absurd. There's a defensive driving method (I've encountered it in motorcycle training courses) known by the acronym SIPDE. Scan, Identify, (try to) Predict, Decide, and Execute. The "try to" is my edit.
The method requires constant awareness and evaluation of your surroundings, and readiness to make the move your survival will depend on. I admit that you can't really predict what's going to happen, but you can probably narrow down the possibilities and have a plan...
Ya gotta be prepared.
The method requires constant awareness and evaluation of your surroundings, and readiness to make the move your survival will depend on. I admit that you can't really predict what's going to happen, but you can probably narrow down the possibilities and have a plan...
Ya gotta be prepared.
A common conclusion from many safety threads is not necessarily specific practices, but how to actively maintain situational awareness.
I have often posted:
I have often posted:
So often on these threads about calamities or near misses, I post about my mindset that I believe gives me that extra edge...
I try to keep safe with certain aphorisms in my head that come to mind to alert me when I encounter a situation where unseen dangers may lurk, such as “Like a weapon, assume every stopped car is loaded, with an occupant ready to exit from either side.” or“Don’t ride over an area (such as puddles or leaves) when you can’t see the road surface."...
Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms (link), collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.
FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms are:
Over the past few months I have come to realize that my safety aphorisms (link), collected over the years by personal or vicarious experience, are my way of actively aligning the stars in my favor, to anticipate those unseen and otherwise unanticipated dangers.
FWIW, for my own information at least, my other aphorisms are:
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 12-17-19 at 06:01 AM.
12-17-19, 05:55 AM
#50
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It really is not absurd. There's a defensive driving method (I've encountered it in motorcycle training courses) known by the acronym SIPDE. Scan, Identify, (try to) Predict, Decide, and Execute. The "try to" is my edit. The method requires constant awareness and evaluation of your surroundings, and readiness to make the move your survival will depend on. I admit that you can't really predict what's going to happen, but you can probably narrow down the possibilities and have a plan.
Not a bike thing but I think you'll get my point. How unpredictable is having a car drop from the sky into your lane while you were driving at interstate freeway speed? I've had it happen. What actually occurred was that the car was traveling on a frontage road atop an embankment parallel to my path of travel, the driver lost control and the vehicle plunged off the bluff tumbling down into my lane, landing on its wheels. My car was the first to approach and I managed to avoid colliding with it. Of course the car didn't literally drop from the sky but it sure as hell looked like it, and it happened FAST.
Ya gotta be prepared.
Not a bike thing but I think you'll get my point. How unpredictable is having a car drop from the sky into your lane while you were driving at interstate freeway speed? I've had it happen. What actually occurred was that the car was traveling on a frontage road atop an embankment parallel to my path of travel, the driver lost control and the vehicle plunged off the bluff tumbling down into my lane, landing on its wheels. My car was the first to approach and I managed to avoid colliding with it. Of course the car didn't literally drop from the sky but it sure as hell looked like it, and it happened FAST.
Ya gotta be prepared.
