Wulf

This reminds me of the 1911 vs Glock threads on other forums.

repechage

To impress the girlfriend, a different bike is required, a Ducati.

I also like the classic look of bikes.

One of the draws to prospective customers in the 70's was that they could buy a bike equal to what the pros were using for a reasonable sum, not cheap, but attainable. One can still buy a pro replica today but the tarif is much more dear.
As to the worry about component failure... They are the same guidance that we had decades ago. Stuff does break but the percentage is amazingly small for all the vintage stuff that is out there.
No one is forcing one to like C&V stuff.
My son could care less, what I do care about and will always encourage is that we have fun riding together.
He might notice the equipment at some point, if not that is okay.

RobbieTunes

Matt,

Perfectly understandable question(s).

Some of it has to do with "relatively, weight does not make a difference," and in many ways, under about 25 lbs or so, it doesn't.

Regarding old bottom brackets, well, a lot of the older ball-bearing bottom brackets are silky smooth in a way newer ones will never be.
The same can be held true for many older hubs. Older Dura Ace hubs, for example, are just silvery gliding examples of attention to quality.
On other parts of the bike, many older quill stems and bars are examples of craftsmanship, as are the seat posts.
Older saddles are very comfortable, and when weight is not an issue, hard to beat.

You are right in some ways about Sora, but while 99.9% of us cannot outride Sora, it's sort of like comparing a new Malibu to a '69 Malibu SS.
One gets you and your girlfriend to a restaurant. The other is parked close where you can watch it, and may get you laid later.

Don't get me wrong; I'm in the "frameset" camp as much as anyone can be. That's my gig: new stuff on the old frames.
I'd put a Chevrolet 430 c.i. custom with a 6-sp auto into a '69 Camaro in a heartbeat over the 283 with 2-sp Powerglide.

The frames have a life to them, the components can add to that or detract from it. Ride what you want.
The fact that you ask means you think about it, and we'll probably get our hooks into you because you're open-minded.

As for your girlfriend, it just takes one look at a beautiful Lotus Classique compared to a Trek 1000 alumicarbon, and she may well be "taken by it."
We don't deserve Dura Ace, but it's nice to have. Same with designer shoes, handbags, or those sandals last summer that were functionally worth $20 and cost $120.

Good on you for asking. Welcome to the nuthouse.

MrCoffee

I like components that match the bike. I am currently working on a Schwinn LeTour, and I intend to keep it all original. So far, so good on the wheel bearings. I have not reached the bottom bracket yet. I will clean the freewheel, and determine whether or not I need to replace it on my initial test ride. If it's worn, then I'll buy a new Shimano freewheel that fits on the hub, so I'll end up with a "modern" component on an old bike. Same with the wheels: If rims can't be trued and the hubs are frozen, then I have no choice. I will purchase new components that match the overall color of the bike, and then will try using the original safety clasps on the new front wheel so it looks as correct as possible. If I had to replace the crank set, and couldn't find something period-correct for a reasonable price, then I would again look for a Shimano Claris (in the silver color) and sealed bottom bracket. In a worst case scenario, I would still want a bike that has the same functionality it originated with.

On a newer bike: No, sorry, but I would not put 70's components on a 2005 aluminum Trek. The overall frame design just wouldn't work with the older groups, and the threading in some places may be different. Those are designed for brake-shifter combos and dual-pivot calipers, with indexed derailleurs. I would want something functional, with reasonable maintenance costs. Older steel bikes are not cheap to fix, but there are plenty of parts available for anything aluminum and less than 20 years old. My Schwinn LeTour will be great for cruising and social rides, but it will definitely not be used for commuting or winter riding. It will not hold up to the winter abuse like a modern bike with sealed bearings and aluminum components. And yes, I've even seen some late-model Magnas and Huffys that are surprisingly tough.

fietsbob

Cognac is more than just another Brandy Like Champagne is more than just a bubbly Grape wine.
if all you want is the Effects ...

So, if you just want a bike to ride and dont care where it came from or its history , then You dont care about the differences .

So be it..

jimmuller 

I'm thinking it's the wrong purpose of style. Sure, it's nice when someone notices the bike I'm riding. But I didn't put a Campy crank my my Masi because I wanted others to notice. I did it because I notice. True style is meant to please whoever notices, not to impress or to be noticed.

As for performance, I'd notice when a pinned chainring doesn't let the chain fall into the slot between the ring and the crank arm. I notice when a modern (or perhaps just new) chain shifts cleanly and quietly on a Hyperglide FW. But otherwise I doubt I'd ever know the difference. The 1st generation Cyclone RD on my Bianchi shifts so smoothly and quietly I can tell it shifted only because my cadence changed. But the Vx's on several of my other bikes shift just as well. The brakes on all of them work just great. Were I racing or even just trying to keep up with a riding club, were I feeling the need to shift up, down, up, down, up, up, down, down, up every 5 seconds, then I might wish for brifters. But truth be told, I feel no need, no lack of performance. So why not go with the style that I'd prefer?

The Golden Boy 

I think most of "us" with old riders use the stuff pretty much as it was intended. But I think most of "us" don't beat on the stuff as it was not intended to be used. (I hate to talk for a forum's worth of people)

The more I've thought about old vs. new stuff I still stay in the old stuff camp and take what I need from the new stuff. I don't see aero (under the handlebar tape) routing as an improvement- just different and more modern. Because I'm not a racer- the steps between gears aren't that much to me- I'm good with 6 speeds in the back. (but 5 does seem limiting to me). Chains, cables and housing are much better, and there's not much of any aesthetic/stylistic difference.

Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder- but IMO a 1990-ish Suntour XC Pro or Superbe Pro RD looks more graceful and less flamboyant than the current Dura Ace or XTR offerings:











On the other hand- some modern stuff looks good and is classically inspired- Although they're old now- the Dura Ace 7800 and Ultegra 6600 look really nice:






Of course, that's in my opinion.

MattoftheRocks

It's intended purpose is to facilitate forward motion. Mentioning the lack of lady-effect is just to say that bling cannot be a factor in the cost:benefit. Most of the cyclists that I know in real life geek out over rides and not parts, so I can't really ask them what the something is about classic components.

Ugly is ugly, questionable tech is questionable. I break stuff. A lot. I love pretty things, dislike ugly things, but I have to evaluate on a $:smiles:miles. When I'm riding I can see the tt and the stem, so their looks matter some. I can feel how far outward the cranks extend, a lot of new ones hang out pretty far for my small hips. So long as the rest works properly or better, I'm a happy camper. That xtr der ailer is butt ugly and I can't say that it is any more functional than most anything in the $40-70 pricepoint.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my question. My experiences told me that these are fine pieces to be respected, to be ridden somewhat forcefully but still gently over glassy smooth roads. There isn't a complete absence of that sort if riding in my life, but I really only have room for one mostly-pavement bike in my garage. I was really kind of hoping that a few people would pipe up and say that they've done years of abusive riding and they're old stuff prooved both pretty and hardy.
@Bandera those cranks are gorgeous, are they Al? What make/model are they?

LesterOfPuppets

The only olde things I really worry about breaking are stems and bars. I keep an eye out for cracks around spoke holes in rims. I've never broken a crank (knock on wood), only ruined one by riding it loose, back in 1992. And stripped pedal hole in another.

I'd trust 7400 DA cranks in NOS or like new condition over hollow carbon Super Record 11, though.

For some reason I trust them over those Truvativ Elita cranks I had, too.

My early aughts Record cranks are a little lighter than 7400 but I'm not overly worried about snapping them.

LesterOfPuppets

I imagine Sora squid cranks are tough enough, as I imagine they're a tad heavy. BB would probably not outlast a 1990 NOS DA BB or be anywhere near as smooth. I've heard of a lot of spline interface ruination on those Octalink cranks and their brethren but I imagine that's mainly from improper installation, then riding them loose, or something like that.

If riding lots of rough roads and riding off curbs, bunnyhopping, etc then going for freehub wheels is way better than freewheel. I've bent/broken a lot of freewheel axles, even on road bikes where I don't jump as much.

Still like my Record freewheel hubset more than any other hubs on the planet, though. Sooooo smooth. And I haven't bent that rear axle yet, after several thousand miles on 'em.

Bandera

Here's a couple of pics of some guys riding gently on glassy smooth surfaces on old bikes:



Proper race bikes from any era perform reliably in the conditions for which they were designed: road racing, pave' included.

I have always tried not to do anything particularly stupid and am adverse to crashing, but all of my C&V bikes have been raced as hard as I could push them.
They worked/work just fine over decades of use.

The cranks on the Vitus are AL "Topline", particularly well suited to a light rider w/ good technique and a high cadence pedaling style, as was the case "back when".

-Bandera

LesterOfPuppets

First Gen DA cranks seemed a little flexy to me. That might have been the frame they were on, though.

If you must get a modern Shimano crank, I'd not choose Sora squids, personally.

iab

Not in my neck of the woods. In the sea of Shimano and SRAM, the riders and mechanics around love my modern Super Record. Totally geek out over it.

As for your question about vintage. Certainly is durable, maybe even more so over modern because it was design for roads back in the day that were certainly many times worse than the worst we have today. Is it better? Maybe not, although the smoothest hubs I have ever felt are from the mid 1930s. Is it worse? Perhaps. But that is not the only point of riding a bike. Sometimes you want something different, not better or worse, just different.

So if you want to ride what you think is "better", more power to you. Enjoy the ride. Nothing obligates to you use or like anything you don't want to use or like.

dddd

This really resonates with me, but I could see where the OP may some day understand, if he continues to frequent C&V AND if he continues to RIDE C&V.

MattoftheRocks, what can we do to encourage both? You'll be glad once you understand!

For me, the validation of these old bikes (albeit fitted with modern chain and with good freewheel sporting appropriate ratios) is that at some point I get these bikes set up to where they are more, not less ergonomic to ride than are modern bikes. One might scoff at that now, but given time and enough riding (with proper bike adjustments), the old bikes come into their own as if a gift from the gods to telepathically transport the rider in complete comfort and serenity, as well as to raise one's aesthetic standards as a function of perfect form-follows-functionality.

Amen

PS, there is a RMWRS (real men and women ride steel) ride at 9:30am tomorrow out of The Flower Farm (real farm, winery and coffee house) parking lot in Loomis Ca.
Two distance options, neither too challenging, 18 and 31 miles iir. Sierra Foothills Cycling Club ride calendar is easy to Google, so anyone nearby please be there with your STEEL bike.

seypat

As far as the durability issue, all I have are old bikes. The oldest two are from 1972. One is my daily rider. I put a period correct Stronglight triple on it and changed out the rims and Simplex RD.(a Suntour replacement of course) But the rest is original. The bike gets ridden in all kinds of weather and multiple centuries each year. If you service the hubs and BB they will just keep going. Bear in mind that most of those bikes were built to be daily riders over terrible roads for a long time. You could argue that today's bikes are not built to those standards.

D1andonlyDman

Maybe his GF just wants something stiffer.

iab

Laterally stiff, vertically compliant.

At least, that's what she said.

RobbieTunes

When I was lured into Rails to Trails and gravel pounding, I simply took my '86 De Rosa with downtube DA off the pavement and onto the questionable surfaces. And not lightly. Other than getting really dirty (like take apart and clean before putting back together dirty), there was no issue. In fact, the rougher the terrain and more hectic the pace, the less I'd think about taking a modern bike. Those things are dainty.

dddd

It's my understanding that today's bikes are built to more-consistent strength-testing standards, such as to be suitable for heavier riders that might wander into a bike shop looking for a bike. There are industry standards for fork strength that didn't exist back in the '70's, but that's not necessarily a good thing if it forces lighter, gentler riders to ride overly stiff and heavy bikes. Some of today's popular mid-market bikes have rather heavy steel forks with 1-1/8" steerers, and again, this isn't all good.

Today's wheels can be problematic when fatigue or mis-hap causes the first spoke to break, as the bike may be un-rideable with one out of only 18 spokes broken.

Today's integrated shifters seem wonderful when new, but their long cables behave more elastically as friction forces increase over time, so refreshing the cabling (to restore indexing accuracy) is more frequently needed.
And cabling that is wrapped under bar tape makes for added service labor.

Shifting from the hoods sounds good, but given the choice, I don't ride with my hands on the hoods very often, except when attacking sharp hills or during a sprint. I much prefer the drops for fast riding and for descending, and use the top of the bars for most cruising and when sitting in amidst a pack of riders. I can access multiple shifts from both positions using my downtube shifters.

Certainly with today's bikes, there are a lot of poorly-sealed bearing designs that don't have the years of testing and refinement that older assemblies had, despite the rubber shields that might seem to promise longevity. And these same bearings have been seriously down-sized, making cleanliness much more critical to their service lifespan.

To the plus side, modern clipless pedals and shoes and modern chains and tires have improved the riding experience for me, but the old bikes are fine and can cost a whole lot less and still be very long-lived. If I had to lift my bike onto a car rack I also might appreciate the lighter weight of the more expensive models.
But I seldom have trouble getting the parts I need to service older bikes, so that's what I ride most of the time.

MattoftheRocks

I got into biking on bulletproof late 90's bmxes. My first adult bike was a gold Motobecane loaded with suntour gear, it was amazingly smooth shifting and I seemed to perpetually be riding with a tailwind. Two weeks in, the freewheel stopped grabbing. Then the bars cracked a couplweeks after that. I left it out to get stolen before looking at the model of components. Then I got an '86 Miyata 310. Not as fast or smooth, but still very fast and smooth and zero breaks through several years of year-round Abuse. But it is too small for long distances. When I finally broke its rear axle I borrowed a friends alumininium SS and fell in love. I then got lucky and my LBS had a Shogun tourer in my size, but I quickly trashed its 27" wheels and its derailers weren't so hot so I turned it into an SS with sealed bearings all-round. It was great till I wrecked. I'm into cv, but my only comparison is top shelf bmx, bso mtbs and cv japanese motorcycles. The bug has bit me, I suppose if/when I get something nice, I'll just treat it nicely.

seypat

And you think a new bike will automatically be immune from these problems? Go to the road forums and read how long the wheelsets and components are lasting. Most of those people are turning over bikes and components every couple of years if not sooner.

Lamplight

For me, the most obvious reason I like old parts and classically inspired newer components is because I just like the way they look. But some of them actually work better for me, and in some cases I just appreciate the quality. For example, I really, really dislike brifters. I hate the way they feel in my hand and I don't like the way they feel when they shift. I also really, really dislike the way cable housing feels under bar tape. Since I have to keep my hands on the bars most of the time, using modern shifter/brake levers basically sucks a lot of the enjoyment out of riding for me. Sure, aero levers are more responsive when braking from the hoods, and I guess my shifting would be a little quicker if I kept my hands on the bars, but if I'm not enjoying the ride then what's the point?

Also, though I'm certainly all for modern cartridge bottom brackets, and currently all of my bikes have those, I'm continually impressed by run-of-the-mill vintage bottom brackets. My Univega had clearly lived a very hard life before I got it, but after a little cleaning the bottom bracket looked and functioned like it was brand new in every way. I recently overhauled a friend's 80s Japanese Bianchi, and his entry level Sugino bottom bracket was similarly pristine after cleaning. This bike was found in a ditch twenty years ago and, as far as I could tell, had never had maintenance done to any of the bearings. The Suzue hubs needed only a cleaning and greasing to work wonderfully, and after doing the same to the bottom bracket it was as smooth as butter. The bearing races were amazingly smooth, and none of these were high end components. Incidentally, I also performed similar maintenance to several other friends' bikes, all much newer, and I basically just had to do the best I could with what I had, knowing none of them would be willing to spend the money to replace bottom brackets, hubs, shifters, etc. Their bikes will never be great to ride unless they're willing to spend more money replacing parts. One was a fairly low end newer bike and I told the owner it wouldn't even be worth the money to put a new chain on it. The Bianchi only required a chain, elbow grease and actual grease, and it rode like it was brand new. The owner was utterly shocked by how nice his bike rode afterward.

crank_addict

My take on why old Dura Ace rocks. It just works and the 'Dura' means durable! If seconds count and your race demands it, OK then, forget about the old stuff and check out what top of the line Shimano is today.

Caveat emptor! Going Di2 is techy time cool, but not so in the ideology of future cycling.


Read this about Di2 and tell me if its worth it, let alone years from now:
https://www.bikeforums.net/tandem-cyc...-troubles.html


Pro- Try the Di2 and its quite impressive.

Now for the big Con- You will NOT own Shimano products, but rather THEY will OWN you! Careful mixing or attempting component upgrades and then firmware.

My only hope is should they make them as disposable products, perhaps they should price them accordingly.

mstateglfr 

You shouldn't.
You should want to complete it with whatever components you like most, be it for aesthetics or use. Or a mix of those.

Get some Suntour bar cons. Get some Shimano 600 indexed downtubes. Get some friction stem shifters.
Get what you want and like and use it. If that means brifters on steel, perfect! There is a massive thread dedicated to grifters on steel...you wouldn't be along to put modern components on steel.

wrk101

Most of the bikes I find and restore have been neglected and abused for DECADES, yet, most of the components, once cleaned and lubed, work fine. The exceptions tend to be bottom brackets, and sometimes wheel hubs and headsets.

The better old stuff is remarkably durable. My brother in law brought his late 1970s thrift store bike find by recently, nothing worked. Flushed, cleaned and lubed the rear derailleur, rebuilt hubs, bottom bracket and headset, added new cables and chain, and the bike rode like new. Meanwhile, some of the new stuff is both EXPENSIVE and throw away.

High point for Shimano: 6400 and 7400 STI groups. High points for Suntour: Cyclone generation 1 and late 1980s Superbe Pro.