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sometimes a poor improvement is worse than doing nothing at all.

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sometimes a poor improvement is worse than doing nothing at all.

Old 04-29-23, 03:05 PM
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sometimes a poor improvement is worse than doing nothing at all.

So the folks in Somerset decided they needed a separate bike lane, and spent serious time and dough to build a beautiful looking one.

Unfortunately, they opted to sink it slightly below grade in places, creating a serious new hazard. This affects both pedestrians tripping over the "hidden" curb, and cyclists who fall because they thought they were only drifting across a painted line, rather than a curb.
Read here (warning may be slow to load)

I have to wonder, knowing how many people were probably involved in the design process, how NOBODY noticed the problem. It would have been equally simple to build the identical land, but keeping the edges level with the pavement. In fact, given that sinking the lane required a specific decision, I would love to ask those involved, "WTF were you thinking?" Hopefully this becomes a textbook case and future designers can learn from it.
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Old 04-29-23, 04:57 PM
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Thanks for posting this item.

There has been discussion from time to time about the purpose this subforum serves.

Since there isn’t a “textbook” for bike infrastructure, it would not surprise me if some designers attempt something similar somewhere else.

My experience is that flaws show up in concrete that are hard to see in blueprints, even for experienced cyclists… and many designers are not experienced cyclists…

This subforum helps get the word out to those of us trying to influence designers and funders.
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Old 04-29-23, 06:01 PM
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Well, the linked article does a really BAD job of even showing the issue. Lots pf photos that clearly don't show anything and a video that only shows one section of this sunken path. Of course, maybe that's the thing, maybe it is so bad it doesn't show in the photos. But jeez, do something in a photo or video to actually show the problem.

Now, the one sunken section I could see, does look completely daft. I'm not sure what the standards are for highlighting drop-offs, curbs, or steps, but I'm pretty sure painting white lines along them that simply make them look like lane dividers, is NOT the way to do this.

If the one drop-off I could see in the video is representative of much of this path, it's an absolute hazard. I'd say more so for pedestrians walking across it the cyclist along it.

I agree with the OP, can all the people involved in this be that stupid?
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Old 04-29-23, 06:18 PM
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yeah, the photo and video makes it appear that the bike lane is either flush with the sidewalk (fine) or 4" below the sidewalk (also fine.) the roadway appears to be level with the bike lane. the video also shows people walking right across it - not at a crosswalk - and the photos of the guy who fell show pedestrians literally walking down the bike lane, in the wrong direction, people jaywalking while holding their phones!?!?

small changes in grade like this are typically avoided because they're hard to see - but people should not be walking across them in this case. it's hard to tell why the condition is like this, but working out grades for roads and bike lanes is surprisingly tricky, given flow lines, allowable cross slopes on the sidewalk, the fact that you can't move the buildings or drain water towards them, etc etc etc.

clearly some mistakes here but it's hard to see from the imagery and description presented why it's so bad.



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Old 04-29-23, 06:32 PM
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This photo does show about a 2-3" sharp curb between the red bike lane and the sidewalk. A higher curb would be safer becasue you would notice it. This is pretty subtle and I think there is something similar between the area with the planter and the bike lane, though I'm not sure.

Given the red bike lane, I think the designers were really trying to isolate the bike lane and must have thought the shallow curb would contribute to that. But why, if you really want to make sure the cyclist don't cross the lines (for some reason), then put in a proper curb. Not what amounts to an intentional tripping hazard.

I can't imagine this will stay this way too long. The lawsuits are going to add up fast.

I will give the designers credit for creating the buffer, where the planters are. It certainly would keep traffic away from the bike lane. Though, maybe this creates risks at the intersections.
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Old 04-29-23, 06:46 PM
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Is the street side of the path the same 2" curb? I'm having trouble seeing it.) If so, a cyclist under the false impression that it is just a painted line might attempt to cross it momentarily for balance, avoid something or whatever, have his tire held to the path, therefore fall away from the path and toward the street and plant his face solidly a the planter box. I don't know British law and liability but it seems to me that cyclist should be able to recoup medial expenses. For a facial re-build that could run a couple of bucks.

Cyclists are going to fall away from that path when tires contact that curb. That's simply a given. Knowing that, you design the area with no objects that will stop heads moving at bike speed. (None of that stuff was there when they paved that lowered bike path. It is not like they had to work around existing contingencies.)
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Old 04-29-23, 06:52 PM
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the "before" condition illustrates what they improved - and what they made worse and probably why. they shifted the buffer to be between the cars and the bikes, rather than between the bikes and the pedestrians, but probably didn't want to make a bike lane with as much cross slope as the heavily cambered road already had. so by flatting out the bike lane and NOT raising the sidewalk they ended up with very small curbs. the curbs were already very small. making it totally flush would likely have resulted in standing water in the bike lane or buffer, and raising the sidewalk would direct water towards the entries of the buildings, which is of course not allowed nor good practice.

it sounds like the real problem is that pedestrians are now walking across it even more, and the even smaller curb is less visible. some tactile domes, yellow strip, or tightly space mountable bollards would probably all be relatively simple fixes. grinding the bike lane down to make it lower than the existing sidewalk would be expensive, messy, likely not compatible with drainage, and result in a pretty sloped bike lane unless the step was moved to between the bike lane and the road. bike lanes a few inches above roads are good, a few inches below, not so much. they're just gutters at that point.

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Old 04-29-23, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
...(None of that stuff was there when they paved that lowered bike path. It is not like they had to work around existing contingencies.)
disagree. there was ALREADY a paved surface there, around 4" below the sidewalk, and sloped towards the gutter. the entire project is working around existing conditions, in what is presumably a very old high street.

you can even see in the before photo (on the right) that some of the curbs were ALREADY only 2 or so inches high. were pedestrians tripping over those too?

a large part of the subtext of articles like this is anti-cyclist bias : HEY LOOK WE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY FOR ONLY A MINORITY OF PEOPLE AND THEY STILL DON'T EVEN LIKE/APPRECIATE IT.
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Old 04-29-23, 06:59 PM
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It looks like they could put in a sloping curb rather than a square curb. How bad would that be to occasionally roll up onto a curb with say a 5° or 10° slope?

The square curbs used across most of the USA wouldn't be fun to hit.
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Old 04-29-23, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
It looks like they could put in a sloping curb rather than a square curb. How bad would that be to occasionally roll up onto a curb with say a 5° or 10° slope?

The square curbs used across most of the USA wouldn't be fun to hit.
The no-brainer easy fix. But use a stone or concrete that is OK in the wet. (Portland and surrounding towns/counties likewise don't always use common sense. Every time I ride into town I ride a bikelane that bends left with the arterial as the road continues straight as a local access. Off-camber and usually debris strewn as I am crossing the cars at their stoplight; turning as I do so. Well, 15 years ago, the town or county painted the bikelane over just that stretch in slippery when wet blue paint. 10 years later, they ground off that paint leaving an extremely rough surface, now partially painted in the better green. But so rough I have my hands full in a mini cyclocross as I deal with cars on three sides. They paid how much to go out of their way to make my rides miserable? Nothing would be radically better.)
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Old 04-29-23, 09:54 PM
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We don't have to sweat details since nothing we say will change the design.

Also, there's no point I'd debating sloped curbs, since the obvious solution is to have the path level with surrounding pavement.

No issue with pretty stonework to delineate the path, but what did anyone hope to gain by building it sub-flush?

In any case, I started this thread as a reminder that the devil is in the details.

Also a reminder to those advocating for bike lanes, they have to.ride the project and make SURE, the execution I'd as good as the concept.

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Old 04-29-23, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
(Portland and surrounding towns/counties likewise don't always use common sense. Every time I ride into town I ride a bikelane that bends left with the arterial as the road continues straight as a local access. Off-camber and usually debris strewn as I am crossing the cars at their stoplight; turning as I do so. Well, 15 years ago, the town or county painted the bikelane over just that stretch in slippery when wet blue paint. 10 years later, they ground off that paint leaving an extremely rough surface, now partially painted in the better green. But so rough I have my hands full in a mini cyclocross as I deal with cars on three sides. They paid how much to go out of their way to make my rides miserable? Nothing would be radically better.)
Portland is unique.

They had marked a bunch of bike paths marked with diamonds. Then decided that the diamonds were non-standard marks. So, they ground off all the diamonds and put in funky bike images.

It would have been much easier to simply add the bike images and let the diamonds eventually wear off.

Anyway, every 100 yards, a big rough patch.

Don't they have a better way to remove old paint?

I used to ride on Beaverton Hillsdale HWY a bit. They had nice bike lanes on the east end, but nothing on the west end. So, they've done a big project to upgrade the bike path on the East end where they already had a path, but I fear still nothing on the west end.

I almost had a wreck at Beaverton Hillsdale and Bertha. Sitting in the car, it looks like the right lane is a turn only lane. However, it is only 99% of the vehicles that have a turn only, and 1% go straight through. Anyway, I almost got smashed by a city bus.
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Old 04-29-23, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Also, there's no point I'd debating sloped curbs, since the obvious solution is to have the path level with surrounding pavement.

No issue with pretty stonework to delineate the path, but what did anyone hope to gain by building it sub-flush?

In any case, I started this thread as a reminder that the devil is in the details.

Also a reminder to those advocating for bike lanes, they have to.ride the project and make SURE, the execution I'd as good as the concept.
As far as I can tell, that path is level with the road. But, the junction with the sidewalk varies from being flush to being a slight vertical dropoff. Subtle enough that it becomes a trip hazard. There are storm sewers in the path too (which I detest, although those do appear to be bike safe enough).

A sloping curb would have helped channel water, while reducing the trip hazard.

As far as cyclists input. Some cities have some kind of cycling advisory board which is supposed to include cyclists. But, what I've realized is that some infrastructure may make perfect sense for one type of cyclist, and makes no sense for the next type of cyclist. For example roundabouts that try to funnel cyclists onto sidewalks and then push buttons to activate flashing lights to cross the roads. I'd rather just ride straight through. But, then they have added features to make it more dangerous for the road cyclists. For example funnel shaped curbs where there is plenty of passing space at the beginning of the curb section, but that space vanishes 100 feet later.
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Old 04-30-23, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
…Also, there's no point I'd debating sloped curbs, since the obvious solution is to have the path level with surrounding pavement..
not quite that obvious. i assume you mean the pedestrian paving, not the vehicular lane. (it is basically level with the vehicular lane, currently, within the parameters of drainage.)

making bike lanes level with the sidewalk means you have to go up and down at every intersection, unless the pedestrian crossings are also raised and the cars go up and down. creates all sorts of funky conditions at intersections, moves the entrance to the storm sewer inboard by the width of the bike lane, and reduces the height of the curb since you can’t slope UP away from the sidewalk unless your goal is to make a river, not a sidewalk.

i realize everyone thinks they’re a civil engineer …. but actually only civil engineers are civil engineers.
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Old 04-30-23, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
not quite that obvious. i assume you mean the pedestrian paving, not the vehicular lane. ...


i realize everyone thinks they’re a civil engineer …. but actually only civil engineers are civil engineers.
Actually I mean both.

I don't have an issue with barriers, but low ones (on either side) especially those not clearly marked, are an unnecessary hazard, yet provide no meaningful benefit.

This particular bike path is uniquely designed to injure both pedestrians because the edge marking is sometimes flush and sometimes not.

Moreover, why would someone create canal in an area known for rain.

As for the civil engineer reference, it's SOP (or used to be) for the senior engineer to review the plans (including details) before signing off on them.

Whoever was in charge here was either totally ignorant of basic design principles, or simply lazy, signing off without due diligence. His sloppy work is going to cost the town some serious dough, and (hopefully) his job.
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Old 04-30-23, 04:16 AM
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Take everything the Daily Mail says about bike lanes with a lot of grains of salt. They've been engaged in a campaign against bike lanes for years.
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Old 04-30-23, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
So the folks in Somerset decided they needed a separate bike lane, and spent serious time and dough to build a beautiful looking one.

Unfortunately, they opted to sink it slightly below grade in places, creating a serious new hazard. This affects both pedestrians tripping over the "hidden" curb, and cyclists who fall because they thought they were only drifting across a painted line, rather than a curb.
Read here (warning may be slow to load)

I have to wonder, knowing how many people were probably involved in the design process, how NOBODY noticed the problem. It would have been equally simple to build the identical land, but keeping the edges level with the pavement. In fact, given that sinking the lane required a specific decision, I would love to ask those involved, "WTF were you thinking?" Hopefully this becomes a textbook case and future designers can learn from it.
Those people should be asked WTF. When taxpayer money is squandered, taxpayers are owed an explanation.
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Old 04-30-23, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
….As far as cyclists input. Some cities have some kind of cycling advisory board which is supposed to include cyclists. But, what I've realized is that some infrastructure may make perfect sense for one type of cyclist, and makes no sense for the next type of cyclist. ….
As with all this, the devil is in the details.

The scope and authority of an advisory committee will vary widely depending on the jurisdiction. In the case of Houston the full committee meets 2 hours 4 times a year as does an infrastructure subcommittee. I’ve been attending on and off for a couple of years and they don’t/can’t review blueprints-level design. Their scope is only city of Houston, and much of the infrastructure is funded by independent overlapping jurisdictions. It is rare that users get to see and influence blueprints.

There is no mechanism in place to prevent an analogous “bad build” here, and I wouldn’t advocate for one… the cure would be worse than the disease..

My approach is to get communication established, build relationships and be forgiving when things don’t turn out right…use experience to build better in the future.

Regarding types of cyclists this is a serious conflict. The local policy of “all ages and abilities” is being interpreted as “only if suitable for 12 and 65+ years-old inexperienced”. This precludes a lot of low-hanging fruit.

It is easy to be an armchair quarterback, but having worked on design and build of projects I know how hard it is to foresee all problems.. as this example from San Antonio shows, there will always be some degree of build-then-fix:


Oops.
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Old 04-30-23, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
I have to wonder, knowing how many people were probably involved in the design process, how NOBODY noticed the problem. I would love to ask those involved, "WTF were you thinking?" Hopefully this becomes a textbook case and future designers can learn from it.
FME, the obvious gets ignored in favor of cost, schedule & performance,
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Old 04-30-23, 10:47 AM
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The root of the problem is that no one with the relevant design expertise had much influence over the project. The project autopsy should start with "how did all this work happen without relevant design expertise?"

There should be an international bicycle infrastructure group that maintains a knowledge base describing best practices for building bike lanes and such - not just focused on safety, but also cost effective ways to bicyclle-freindly-ize existing roadways. I suspect the same mistakes are repeated over and over around the world.
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Old 04-30-23, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Actually I mean both....
okay, both!?

how do you make the bike lane level with BOTH the road and the sidewalk and relatively flat in cross section? bonus points for drawing a section of such a right of way configuration that doesn't require raising the elevation of the entire roadway by several inches.

like i said, not everyone is a civil engineer - and clearly not anyone commenting on this thread.
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Old 04-30-23, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mschwett
okay, both!?

how do you make the bike lane level with BOTH the road and the sidewalk and relatively flat in cross section? bonus points for drawing a section of such a right of way configuration that doesn't require raising the elevation of the entire roadway by several inches.

like i said, not everyone is a civil engineer - and clearly not anyone commenting on this thread.

how do you make the bike lane level with BOTH the road and the sidewalk and relatively flat in cross section? With poured concrete, you simply "level" it with a board running from sidewalk to the road surface. Yes, it is not carpenter's level level but how cares? (I watched the contractoor do this on my driveway after he cut out the high ridge my car couldn't clear and did a lower pour. That was just about the width of this path. Now I realize that doing so eliminates all camber and drainage, a point I would have expected from you, the pro.. I don't argue with the approach taken here (assuming there is still enough slope for proper drainage in English weather - I assune they got that right) Why couldn't you simply regrade as they did and pull out the curb and re-pour a new one that slopes from sidewalk to the path surface? (And where the sidewalk and path currently match, nothing needs to be done. Integrating this with wheelchair ramps at intersections shouldn't be too hard. I'm no civil engineer. This is a few minutes of thought. I expect someone for whom this is his life to do better.
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Old 04-30-23, 11:34 AM
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The roads going through my sub-division have been repaved so much that the middle of the road is probably over 2½ feet higher than it was originally and it still is about the same original level at the edges where it joins the curb. This makes for very uncomfortable walking on the edge of the road where the camber is the steepest. I refuse to walk in the neighborhood anymore with my wife and insist we hit the nearby MUP which starts a block away from our home.

Perhaps this same thing is what was the intention of them when they did this. But as is often the case, there are unintended consequences. Maybe they said that in the article, but I skimmed through that quickly as I did with the other replies here. So if I missed it, then oops!
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Old 04-30-23, 11:43 AM
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Simple fix: make that wooden ramp into a draw bridge. Flashing lights and bells with the bridge is lowering...

Originally Posted by flangehead
...


Oops.
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Old 04-30-23, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
how do you make the bike lane level with BOTH the road and the sidewalk and relatively flat in cross section? With poured concrete, you simply "level" it with a board running from sidewalk to the road surface. Yes, it is not carpenter's level level but how cares? (I watched the contractoor do this on my driveway after he cut out the high ridge my car couldn't clear and did a lower pour. That was just about the width of this path. Now I realize that doing so eliminates all camber and drainage, a point I would have expected from you, the pro.. I don't argue with the approach taken here (assuming there is still enough slope for proper drainage in English weather - I assune they got that right) Why couldn't you simply regrade as they did and pull out the curb and re-pour a new one that slopes from sidewalk to the path surface? (And where the sidewalk and path currently match, nothing needs to be done. Integrating this with wheelchair ramps at intersections shouldn't be too hard. I'm no civil engineer. This is a few minutes of thought. I expect someone for whom this is his life to do better.
my point is not that you can't physically make a level-ish surface. my point is that it will not drain correctly. the sidewalk slopes down, away from the buildings. the road slopes down from the crown. they meet at the low point, the gutter, where there are entrances to storm drains or water is channeled elsewhere. that's a large part of what curbs are for.

"level" the sidewalk (it has to continue sloping down away from the buildings - can't dump water into someone's front door) further out towards the road and then it will meet the camber of the road at some point. congratulations, you've made a river in the middle of the road, or bike lane.

there are reasons we don't typically make very small curbs - reasons they are unfortunately discovering here. they didn't do this for fun, or because they're morons, they did it because they had an existing road, an existing sidewalk, and wanted to move the buffering planters from between the bikes and the peds to between the bikes and cars, which is clearly the safer thing for cyclists. this article is anti-cyclist propaganda disguised as witty commentary on a fairly nuanced engineering problem, exacerbated by pedestrians being idiots and jaywalking across a bike lane while looking at their phones.
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