jambon

Hi there ,

I have read a lot of views about KOPS (Knee over pedal axle being) kind of old hat and that setting saddle setback so that body weight is properly distributed over the bike is a better way to set saddle fore aft.

So does the relationship of the knees/legs to the BB or pedals not have any importance then ? I am confused.

Some of the anti KOPS arguments use incumbents as an example of how relationship of how KOPS is irrelevant.

Iride01 

KOP's works if your body has all the proportions KOP's was based on. I'd adjust everything else first and if you happen to be in KOP's then good for you!

Balance on the saddle isn't a static thing you do while stopped. You need to be in the gear ratios and at the speed of your normal riding. Also you have to share some of your weight on your arms and hands. You shouldn't expect to be perfectly balanced on the saddle. If you do, then you are going to have all your weight on the saddle. That's not so good. You'll be looking for a comfortable saddle on long rides.

I don't think about balance on the saddle at all. I think about balance on the BB. I want my butt in a position that lets me put power into the cranks and feel balanced at differing efforts. Usually I find adjusting the stem length and bar height important for that.

But if you are doing leisurely riding, then probably you will be wanting balance on the saddle more than the BB.

Sojodave

KOPS is only a starting point. The balance method will give you more balance and if you have a trainer, it's easy to test with the "no-hands/less pressure" method.

79pmooney

I don't use either KOPS or balance to locate my seat/position and never have. I see this as 1) getting the seat the right distance from the bottom bracket, 2) getting the triangle right between BB, hips and shoulders (once seat is located, then what reach/drop do I need to the handlebars to get shoulders in the right place and arm bend feeling natural) and 3) rotating that entire triangle depending on the riding I will be doing on that bike.

Once I have that triangle, I rotate it forward and down for the bikes I use for faster/harder riding and the fix gears (since there is no way to get a break going up wind). Bikes I use for cruising and easy miles get the triangle rotated back. There is a position in that rotation that satisfies KOP. Likewise one that satisfies balance. Where that is I don't know simply because it is so far down the priorities I haven't looked.

Oh, yes, I do have real weight on my hands on many of my bikes and have to address that as a real issue. For me, that is mostly a matter of seeing to it my wrist rotation is right. (Feedback for me is real, happens in real time and is obvious. Both pain and numbness.) I do setup rides with no tape on the handlebars and all the wrenches for stem, handlebars and brake hoods.

Oh, I rotate the triangle on a computer drawing, then see what stem, etc, I need to make it work. A very useful fudge factor I have found is that I can draw a line through the handlebars at an angle of 30 degrees from horizontal. Moving the handlebars along that line doesn't change my shoulder location or arm bend. (Down and closer is more power from handlebar pulling and racier. Higher and forward is better upwind. Also more comfortable on long climbs. Differences in overall comfort are minor.) The real blessing of that line is that it turns out to be a "slope" of 2 cm horizontally and 1 cm along the line of the steerer. How convenient! A 13 stem is the same as an 11 set 1 cm lower. (For me. I still dial in the final setting on the road. And love quill stems that make it so easy.)

Carbonfiberboy 

For me, the balance I like and KOPS happens at the same adjustment. That's not the case for everyone. If one were prioritizing or just starting out with a fit, I'd establish KOPS, then fiddle until one's hands feel appropriately light on the bars while doing one's normal effort on the flat. One will find that one's exact back bend and shoulder position will have an affect on that. Experiment until you can ride comfortably for hours. Maybe I have long femurs because I need a lot of saddle setback to achieve KOPS and balance. And KOPS is frequently not well explained. One drops the plumb bob from the bony process just below the kneecap.

tomato coupe

AnthonyG

KOPS is a reference point. Not the be all and end all of bicycle fit.
KOPS usually works out at being a good compromise between performance and comfort for "Performance" bicycles. If you're simply a recreational rider with no thought of high performance than I would set your knees up behind KOPS and put comfort first.
Something that in equal parts surprised me and annoyed me is how many small frames put the riders in front of KOPS on recreational bikes when being in front of KOPS is completely in performance territory.
This is done for the manufacturers convenience because its impossible to make small frame bikes with 700c wheels without completely messing up the geometry and pushing the saddle forwards. Just getting the saddle back to KOPS is no small miracle on these bikes and has a lot to do with small riders are quite uncomfortable on bicycles.