The Trashman

Hello. I never dealt with road bikes prior to a while ago, I bought a shogun 400, but it was in fairly poor shape so I decided to leave it for parts. I then got a zebrakenko wind (or was it a thunder) for $10 that I have done some work on and it good considering the price. But it is fairly low end, probably 30 pounds when I bought it, if I swap the aluminum shogun wheels on, change steel bars and seat posts, I might get it to come down a bit, but the frame it self leaves some to be desired.

No bottle cage mounts, stem shifters, no provisions to mount racks etc. It is not necessarily that I desire these features as it could be retrofitted to make these items work, but rather it being an indicator of originally being a lower end machine.

That brings me to the question, what are some general indicators of a potentially high quality or light weight frame outside of branding or components on the bike?

I would imagine anything requiring additional machining or manufacturing processes would be indicative of the overall effort and original cost in production, such as eyelets, provisions to mount racks and bottles, brazed on mounts for down tube shifters etc, would this be a correct assumption to be a general judge frame quality? For example, would a bike generally speaking with brazed on mounts for down tube shifters, generally be higher quality than one with say clamp on down tube or stem shifters? Would a frame that lacked any sort of provisions to mount a bottle cage on it be likely to have been a low end machine sold to a more casual consumer not intending to do long rides, would a frame with several mounts potentially be better than one with a single cage?

Of course research and information about the specific model of a bike would be far more useful in determining quality, but I just wish to have a basic idea of the general characteristics of what lower end and higher end frames might exhibit to make things easier if I see something out in the wild or in a blurry craigslist photograph with no other information,

polymorphself 

The easiest giveaway, if present, are the tube model decals on the seat tube and/or fork blades. Reynolds 531 and Columbus are two of the most popular and will always be quality frames on the lighter side. The same with Miyatas Triple Butted tubing, Tange Prestige and others. However, bikes with lesser but still good frame material could be a good weight as well. Learning about the various tubing will get you further than learning about models.

Frames post ~1973 that use an adapter to attach the rear derailleur rather than actually having a derailleur hanger as part of the frame will typically be lower end (with some exceptions).

There are many other things to look for that others will point out, but the above are easy rules of thumb.

P!N20

Yes and no. While your examples may indicate a good quality frame, they can't really be looked at in isolation, you'll need to factor everything else in. For example; many high end racing marques manufactured frames with only one bottle mount well into the 90's. Some leading frame builders preferred clamp-on components as there was a belief that braze-on attachments weakened the tubes.

merziac

Forged dropouts

Darth Lefty 

Bike weighs somewhere in the low-middle 20’s

Bare frame somewhere in the region of five pounds, less for the really nice ones

Aluminum rims, seat post, handlebar, stem

Tubular tires. You may not like them but they didn’t go on junk bikes.

Butted spokes

Bike has parts with recognizable brand names, especially Italian

3 piece square taper cranks - not cotter pins or one piece, especially in the 70’s. By the 80’s these were pretty much standard

Forged dropouts are good in the 70’s on lugged bikes from Yurp or Japan but mid 80’s on welded Taiwan bikes have them more often

SJX426 

JMHO
Braze-ons are not a good indicator for the older bikes. My 1972 Le Champion does not have any! All the equivalents are clamp-ons. It was the top of the line in that year. The same vintage Bottecchia is the same.
So what is left.
Drop outs, as mentioned, is another good indicator. Many have built in axle locators, however Simplex does not. Of course the rear DS drop out will often have a RD mount too. Go back further in years and even that isn't present.
Lugs are another indicator and specifically the obvious workmanship wrt brazing quality. Gaps are not a good indicator! nor are poorly shaped lugs. Even that can be somewhat acceptable. The other feature I like to see is lugs with features other than a cut off look, points, curly features, non linear.
Any frame that has a mount for a kickstand is out, unless it is really old and desirable as a result.
I also look at the bridges. Is it a straight tube or tapered or other-non uniform cylindrical shape?
Some might include the drop out joint with the stays or fork leg. But even then it is questionable, Colnago in the mid 1980's is not an exciting look.
I will let the experts really tell you what to look for. Frame builders will likely give the details

ClydeClydeson

The first indicator I look for is a derailleur hanger built in to the dropout as opposed to a 'claw' separate hanger. I have been told that there have been higher quality bikes made without a built in hanger, but I have not seen one as far as I know.

Another item is headset size - on old bikes you are likely to find two 1" headset sizes - I am not sure what their official designation is but one has a 22.2 mm quill stem, and one has a 21.1mm quill stem. I have only seen 21.1mm stems on cheap bikes.
The same goes for one-piece 'Ashtabula' cranks and bottom brackets - common on less expensive bikes like Hyuffys and old Schwinns, but not really a thing you'll find on any nice lightweight bikes, which up until 10 to 15-ish years ago were almost all threaded into the frame 2 or three piece crank/bottom bracket assemblies.

ClydeClydeson

They might ride a 17 lb bike instead of a 16 lb bike, but they aren't riding 32 lb Schwinns with electro-forged gas pipe frames.

SJX426 

On the other hand.... Masi 3V design is not a weight advantage but it makes up for it in stiffness with larger OD tubes and thin walls.

steelbikeguy

this is a very specific indicator of a high quality frame...



It signifies that the frame was built by a small specialist shop within Raleigh bicycles. They made racing frames and some custom items, all hand built with very high standards.

more generally, the bike should have clean and crisp lug edges and thinned sections where the tubes are inserted....



this unpainted frame by Mark DiNucci is a better example of the sort of top level frame craftsmanship.....


Steve in Peoria

Ex Pres 

A quicky is the seatpost size. If it's less than 27.0 for most frames (imperial-sized tubing) or 26.4 (metric/French), then it's not likely top of the line tubing. Of course you can have mixed tubesets so only the main triangle might be the top-line.

Tough to tell with a blurry CL photo, and you certainly can't ask a seller who would post a blurry photo and expect a correct answer. And of course if you're just out and about you might need an accurate caliper at hand.

gugie 

^this

I can look at a crappy picture and usually see if it's got a derailleur hanger on it. Mid-60's through early 80's it isn't always true, but if I'm combing through hundreds of Craigslist pix, my first filter is this.

Doesn't always work, lots of 50's and 60's British frames were excellent but weren't built with them.

merziac

Not hard to get the hang of frames that they are a good indicator on and by extension the frames without them that warrant further investigation, or not.

This is a prime example of learning the C+V curve, critical thinking in this vein will serve well as the obsession ramps up.

Eric F 

UCI has a minimum weight limit for bikes. Very often, the heavier areo model is still bumping up against that minimum limit.

John E

I favor integral derailleur hangers myself, but I guess my 1962 full butted Reynolds 531 Carlton Franco Suisse does not qualify as "higher quality."

As obtained from my wife's younger sister. Just my size. The 27" steel rims are going, along with the completely rotted tires, rusty spokes, and 30-year-old cloth tape. Keeping the Sugino/SunTour components and the original Weinmann 999 brakeset.

All stripped down and ready to rebuild.

Andy_K 

Counter-point, 1973 Nishiki Olympic



I'm pretty sure these were the same dropouts as used on Nishiki's better bikes, like the Competition. The Olympic weighed in at a robust 35 pounds, and has pure hi-ten tubing. Of course, it did have plenty of other indicators that it wasn't a top-quality bike, such as the claw hanger (though I think the Competition had that too), stem shifters, cottered cranks, steel wheels, and a kickstand. I should also note that while the Competition was made with double-butted Cro-Mo steel, it still wasn't at the level of many European bikes of the time.

John E

Starting in the late 1960s or so, yes. Prior to that, "It ain't necessarily so."

1960 top-of-the-line Capo Sieger -- stamped dropouts with U-shaped braze-on to provide thickness and stiffness.

Repainted Cap Sieger frame, serial number very close to that of my other Sieger, so who was I to say no to it? Note Rathausmann on the seat tube. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rathausmann
Who but the Viennese would call their City Hall a "rat house"?

CliffordK

For 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's era bicycles, I consider braze-ons and cable routing as a progression that can help date a bike/frame. And, it really seems to cross brands.

Even the location and types of braze-ons.

So, it is not uncommon for a 1960's bike to have no braze-ons. Perhaps with the first one to be common being a cable stop on top of the right rear chainstay. Next one might get above bottom bracket cable guides. Then as one progresses to newer frames, top tube cable guides or cable stops. Then shifter bosses followed by downtube bottle braze-ons, followed by seat tube braze-ons.

By the 80's, below bottom bracket cable guides became more popular than the above bottom bracket guides.

Other than many of the features mentioned above, one can also look at the general quality if the workmanship.

My Steyr Clubman has a little dab of weld on the bottom side of the lugs, presumably to help hold it in place while it was being built. I think my Dutchess was spot welded together.

Andy_K 

This reminded me of another bike that passed through my garage (along with the fact that Campagnolo made stamped dropouts with an integrated derailleur hanger -- 1010/1 Sport).



The frame I had with these was a Bertin of some sort and seemed to be a fairly nice frame. Like your Capo, I think the lugs give it away as better than average.

merziac

Well, we all know, never say never, always, only, etc., yada, yada and I didn't, so.....

But when you see them, they usually indicate good, better, best.

When you don't see them, all bets are off, anything is possible.

58 Paramount, here there is no doubt.

Whenever you see Campy forged dropouts, you are almost always in a better place.

merziac

You sure those are forged? Maybe stamp forged. That fender tab looks to be stamped and the Japanese had several questionable production methods that nobody else ever trusted, with good reason.

Andy_K 

No, I'm not sure. They're thick and have a raised area for where the axle is clamped. Those are the only visual identifiers of forged dropouts that I know. I'm sure it's possible to make a stamped dropout look like this.

merziac

Well, that being said we know that they held up and worked just fine, plenty of great old Nishiki's and fans of them so...

T-Mar

Due to constant technological development, there's no correct answer unless it's put put into context of an era. What's considered high grade in one era could be low grade or even totally outdated in the subsequent era.

merziac

Really, so a lightweight, beautiful and meticulously crafted custom frame from a master builder or top manufacturer is just overrated hype?

I don't think so.