petereps

Looks like I'll just get a chain tensioner, and test it out on a few standing starts to get my confidence. Thanks

carleton

You should work on getting a new rear wheel. You will find that using a chain tensioner is a pain in the buttocks in practice. It adds a significant amount of time to each wheel, chainring, or cog change.

You only need one. The right side. The left doesn't do anything. Also, set the wheel with the bolts FIRST then tighten the tensioner. This is the best way. Don't try to set the chain tension with the chain tensioner (yes, I'm fully aware of the irony of that statement ) The tensioner is designed to KEEP the chain from pulling the wheel forward by holding the wheel axle in place. It's not for pulling the axle into place as you set the wheel with the bolt or nut.

The Paul hubs are nice, but allen bolts are not good for this reason.

There exist dropouts that can handle the strongest standing starts with no chain tensioners. Titanium dropouts (like on the TK1 and Tiemeyer) can do that.

petereps

Awesome thanks for the help. I don't change wheels/cogs much at the moment, so chain tensioner shouldn't be too much of a headache. But I will try to get different wheels as I progress and change gear more.

MarkWW

Unfortunately, the TK1 doesn't fall under this category. My bike will be at felt for over a month for them to bond in new Ti inserts since mine got completely crushed after a season and a half of wheel changes. And they're not warrantying it either, since I didn't use the tensioners.

carleton

Wow.

But, I guess you are making my point the Ti allows the wheel nuts to bite and grip. But, I guess they get chewed up.

Tiemeyer was ahead of his time with solid Ti, user-replaceable dropouts.

Koogar

Sorry to hear. Curious to learn more - what was the failure mode, exactly?

Inserts make a lot of sense; non-user replaceable consumable parts, not so much.

queerpunk

Yeah. I had a TK2 before they had steel inserts. Track-ends got chewed the eff up.
When I switched bikes, getting one with steel inserts was a priority. It's been 3 seasons and I haven't replaced them - but it's nice peace of mind.

Baby Puke

Disagree with you here, Carleton. My advice is to get the wheel roughly in place, but with the chain on the slack side. LIGHTLY hand tighten the nuts, then set tension with the tensioners. Why? Unless the tensioners are under some slight bit of pre-load, they will rattle loose. If you have built-in tensioners, this will just result annoying and mysterious noises while you ride. If you use add-on tensioners, you'll get the rattles until they stop, at which point you'll have dropped some parts on the track, never good.

MarkWW

They didn't get chewed up. They got completely crushed, which meant that my dropout spacing was much less than 10mm and I couldn't insert my wheels into the frame anymore. I asked a felt engineer about it and he said the inserts are designed very soft, so you have to use really low torque with them combined with the tensioners. When I asked him what the torque spec was, he just said "as little as possible". It'd be nice if they mentioned that when you bought the $4000 frameset.

Koogar

I don't understand why dropouts seem to be an area especially rife with questionable engineering choices. The cheap Fuji version is a good example. How in the world did using six screws to hold together two separate plates seem like the best way to solve this problem? And did no one consider the need to make sure they don't protrude on the inside? For what it's worth, first they were slippery, then they spread.

Baby Puke

I feel like large sprinters are people who should use chain tensioners as a matter of course, though I know plenty of people object to them (they can be fussy). But if you are big and strong and you don't use tensioners, you need to tighten the **** out of that rear axle, or it will move. This leads necessarily to mashed track ends, expensive repairs, and bummers. I've got one of those Dolan DF3's that everybody complains have faulty track ends (they spread). Well, the bike is almost ten years old now and the track ends are in fine shape.

If you are not large or at least medium, and you are not doing a whole lot of maximal standing starts, you probably don't need them. But I can't tell you how many pulled wheels I've seen in starts over the years. If there's a known fix, why not just use it?

queerpunk

i've also seen small people pull wheels routinely, but the common thread with those tend to be the wheels (cane creeks - very hard to tighten properly).

Dalai

Interesting you had issues Koogar. I had an 08 Fuji Track Pro and had zero issues for the 5 years I owned it.

MrMinty

Anyone used the beginner session program on UpUpUp I.e.

Day Exercise reps
Monday Squat 3 x 5
Press 3 x 5
Power Clean 3 x 4
Thursday Squat 3 x 5
Benchpress 3 x 5
Deadlift 1 x 5
Chinups 3 x 5

Only just getting into track sprinting, so looking to get initial gains

Trackliche

You might try riding your bike a bit.

Really, though.

TC

taras0000

Depends on where your strengths and weaknesses lie. If you are already strong and powerful, and have speed on the road but not the track, then more riding is in store and you can ignore the weights. If you're abilities on road and track are similar, never lifted before, and you think you're going to stick with tracksprinting, then a basic program is good to start now so that the gains in the gym kick in with the increased skill on the track. I would just learn the sprinting side of track riding first. You'll make up quite a bit of speed in the first 6-12 months, then the weights will contribute to more speed increases if you're training right.

gtrob

wow I had no idea what would be that soft. I also just tighten mine down hard, as I always have, and just plan to file them down if they get tight, as I always have. Perhaps I should just use the tensioners, I dont change gearing that much after all.

Koogar

I bought a super duper NJS tensioner for alloy frames (i.e., thick dropouts) once long ago, but it didn't fit my Fuji. Before I got around to filing stuff down, finding another one, or wasting another $30, the wheel stopped slipping. But it did start walking forward if tightened at a certain spot in the dropouts. I'd turn the question around and ask: if better dropout designs exist, why don't all frame manufacturers use them?

Don't look back and be very grateful! The dropout design from my pictures is ubiquitous in the market and to me a sure sign of cutting corners. Others have had the same problems I've experienced.

carleton

I'd venture to guess that most track bikes are "designed" in a conference room. "Hey, Frank, can you put track ends on that road frame over there?" Frank is like, "Sure." Boom. Done. New "track bike" on the market.

Also, the crappy track ends work for most riders. So, why re-engineer something for the small percentage of the riders who will have problems pulling wheels? "Just tell 'em to use a chain tensioner." Boom. "Problem solved". Which is a shame.

The problem is that that small percentage of the market is like large percentage of the competitors (sprinters). So, if they are looking to make a bike that is designed for competition, then they should take dropouts very seriously. This is why some of the high end comp bikes all have unique dropout designs (BT, LOOK 496/L96, TK1, Tiemeyer), but most do not.

It's like the bike manufacturers simply don't want to bother with it. They would rather a few people deal with slipping dropouts than re-engineer them.

Let's look at this in terms of another sport. Basketball.

If you are a shoe company that makes basketball shoes, you will definitely have the standard sizes (7-12). You are covering most of the casual shoe market. Very few people wear sizes 13, 14, 15+, etc... But, guess who does? competitive basketball players. So, if you want those guys to wear your shoes, then you will have to make them in larger sizes.

If bike manufacturers want sprinters to ride their bikes, then they can't have slipping dropouts, seatposts, seat binders, etc...

As petereps mentions above, there is a huge loss of confidence in one's equipment when these things happen. It's really difficult to give 100% on an effort of your equipment has failed in the recent past. You consciously or subconsciously hold back some.

MrMinty

Yes, that's just the gym session. I'm also doing a HIIT session on a Tuesday and a cycle Saturday or Sunday too. Hard to get to the velodrome at the moment, so just fitting that in where I can

When the weather improves, it'll be cycling Tuesday (Road ride), Track league Thursday, Track Training Sunday. Don't know where I'd fit the gym in around that.

Original question is that is the up!up!up! A good workout routine for beginners?

MarkWW

It worked for me my first season of lifting. I ended up stalling and re-setting a few times at the end, though. Switching to 5x5 helped with that. So long story short, give it a shot, you could do worse.

Trackliche

Two bike days a week is not enough- even the UpUpUp schedule calls for three, IIRC. You're going to find way more speed/fitness by using all that gym time to instead ride your bike.

When you read that "strength is the base for sprinters like aerobic is the base for enduros", realize that you can do adequate strength work on the bike just fine. It might not propel you to the top of the ranks, but riding 4 days a week with no gym time versus riding 2 days a week with gym time is not even a tough call for a beginner.
Even if you're a lifelong roadie, f you've never done track sprinting, you don't know what it means to give 100% on an effort. You don't have your Central Nervous System setup for 135rpm power. You don't have good form in a start or a sprint. You probably don't even know how to grip the bars correctly.
If you focus on training your sprint, you will find much higher quality, longer-lasting, valuable gains in fitness, form, and skill by riding your bicycle in a reasonably specific manner rather than picking up heavy things. Gym work is at this point very much extraneous.

TC

carleton

It's winter. Many sprinters lift heavy 3x a week and ride 2x a week in the winter.

We aren't getting paid for this. So, if he wants to lift 3x/week and ride 2x/week and that gets him out the house 5x/week, then that's GREAT.

Remember, for the rank beginner, DOING ANYTHING 5x/week will make them faster. Anything

Trackliche

For a rank beginner, running circles around his house with a backpack full of Cheetos five days a week will make him faster and get him out of the house. That doesn't mean he's doing a good job of training.

He didn't ask for any advice on what might possibly work to make him faster than he is currently; he asked if two days a week on the bike and three in the gym is a good beginning sprinter setup. I think it's not as good as more time on the bike and less in the gym.

TC

carleton

Also, to a rank beginner, being on a specialized program has no more benefit than running circles around his house with a backpack full of Cheetos five days a week. I truly believe this (in spirit). This is why new participants in any sport measure crazy gains in the first few months.

And I think that 3 days in the gym and 2 days on the bike is just fine. I have had 2 elite coaches prescribe such a program for me in the past for this time of year and I would suggest the same. Strength and power are the foundations of modern track sprinting. It takes YEARS to get close to one's genetic potential in those areas. Also, weight training can transcend bike racing into other sports and non-sport as well. It can be a life-changing (and extending) activity...more so than training to race bikes.

A few more points:

- This is why I shy away from discussing specific training programs and try to dissuade newbies for asking for them. Asking "What should I do for a training program?" is like asking, "How long is a piece of string?"
- OP needs personal attention from teammates, coach, or a friend who will do more than offer a few paragraphs that might dictate the next 6 months of his/her life.
- Every athlete responds to training plans differently. Even athletes at the world level on the same team may have significantly different training programs.