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Do Want, Way Crazy Tool

Old 06-23-21, 09:06 PM
  #1  
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Do Want, Way Crazy Tool

Is this the truing+ stand to beat all the others? I present the Radonaut from Cyclus:
(it is in German)

Yeah it is over $6k and completely crazy and kinda ugly compared to P&K Lie or Aivee but whoooooooooooieeeeeeeeee it has a computer machine and shows you all the infos.
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Old 06-23-21, 10:44 PM
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Old 06-24-21, 01:04 AM
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Interesting machine.

I wonder how it compares to a basic analog stand like my VAR truing stand?



Plus the mod to help with hop sensitivity.



I obviously don't get all the gadgets of the machine above, nor the digital printouts, but can get pretty good. All I need is a bit more practice.

Now, mine is more qualitative than quantitative, but one can add dial gauges.

The wheel in the video appeared to be pretty close to true, and just adjusting a couple of individual spokes.
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Old 06-24-21, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Interesting machine.

I wonder how it compares to a basic analog stand like my VAR truing stand?

.
Who needs reams of data when they could have something as fun as this! OK, if you were doing a ton of wheels then the computer version would be handy, but I repair things for the pleasure of handling objects, for the same reason I ride instead using some bicycle racing game.
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Old 06-24-21, 06:07 AM
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No, but I would love to replace my Roger Musson's design shop built with a vintage VAR like CliffordK's after getting to play with one in a Portland shop.
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Old 06-24-21, 08:07 AM
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.
...thanks. I find it very entertaining that the guy in the demo video for a $6,000 wheel stand is using the same spoke wrench as me.
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Old 06-24-21, 08:08 AM
  #7  
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In the end, all that a wheel truing stand does is to provide a stable place to measure from.
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Old 06-24-21, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
In the end, all that a wheel truing stand does is to provide a stable place to measure from.
True, but there are some advantages as one goes up in value of the stand from speed to accuracy.

Ideally that electronic truing stand would be 100% self centering. Measure the OLD distance, measure the width of the rim, and center accordingly. Perhaps even allow one to program in a slight offset for dished wheels if one wishes.

In a home shop, it may not matter if it takes a while to true a wheel.

But, I could imagine the benefits for someone that does a lot, like in a wheel shop or small manufacturer. If one could double an employee's production doing full time wheel building, it might pay for itself in a matter of months.

That machine does appear as if it can probably deal with different rim sizes, perhaps with a different table. However, I don't see any provisions for laterally truing mounted wheels (which was one of Park's arguments for their newer larger truing stands). Not that different rollers couldn't be used with tires.
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Old 06-24-21, 09:16 AM
  #9  
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I have The TS-2.2 professional truing stand. I use dial indicators because it is much easier to see what you are doing. I can bring my disk brake rotors to within .2 mm TIR. I have my current set of wheels to within .005" TIR both side to side and hub centered in the wheel. I purchased my tools for far less money and after watching part of the video I don't see that the truing stand they are demoing is any faster.
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Old 06-24-21, 09:32 AM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Interesting machine.

I wonder how it compares to a basic analog stand like my VAR truing stand?



Plus the mod to help with hop sensitivity.



I obviously don't get all the gadgets of the machine above, nor the digital printouts, but can get pretty good. All I need is a bit more practice.

Now, mine is more qualitative than quantitative, but one can add dial gauges.

The wheel in the video appeared to be pretty close to true, and just adjusting a couple of individual spokes.
that is so cool
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Old 06-24-21, 10:12 AM
  #11  
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The biggest question…

…does the machine print out SOL when it finds a hop that the user can’t fix.

John
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Old 06-24-21, 10:58 AM
  #12  
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Why but that one...

Make one with an Arduino, 4 bulldog clips and a skateboard!

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Old 06-24-21, 11:12 AM
  #13  
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Mine was $20, plus some already in shop spray paint.

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Old 06-24-21, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad View Post
put me on your gift list
If only I had that kind of money.

I would have a dream shop with a live-in master tech full of only the best tools (including at least one of those) and small velodrome in the basement with a full fleet of Don Walker track frames for any friends or family to use. I would have MTB trails in the backyard as well and probably some S-Works Stumpjumpers and some Santa Cruz/Juliana carbon dream bikes for everyone as well (or something else nice).
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Old 06-24-21, 02:36 PM
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Why do people assume RIMS are that perfect?
I've seen 1mm variation from "bead" to bead" on cheap, NEW rims. Often with most the variation off to one side or the other.
You can often get an idea by simply taking an adjustable wrench to use as a go/no go gauge.
Adjust the jaws and slide around the rim.
You'll find high & low spots. Often enough to make dial indicators a waste of time.
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Old 06-24-21, 02:41 PM
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Somewhat of a niche market for a tool like that. Cool as heck though!

I believe it's the mechanic not the tools.
A good mechanic with good tools does good work.
A good mechanic with average tools still does good work.
A lousy mechanic with good tools still does lousy work.
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Old 06-25-21, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Why do people assume RIMS are that perfect?
I've seen 1mm variation from "bead" to bead" on cheap, NEW rims. Often with most the variation off to one side or the other.
You can often get an idea by simply taking an adjustable wrench to use as a go/no go gauge.
Adjust the jaws and slide around the rim.
You'll find high & low spots. Often enough to make dial indicators a waste of time.
Very, very true.
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Old 06-25-21, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Why do people assume RIMS are that perfect?
I've seen 1mm variation from "bead" to bead" on cheap, NEW rims. Often with most the variation off to one side or the other.
I think with my VAR truing stand setup as above, I was getting variation with the radial runout from a spoke hole to the point between spokes to the next spoke hole, so it was impossible to get it "perfect". My machine would only run the lateral gauge on the right side without flipping the wheel, so I wouldn't really notice if the rim got fatter somewhere.
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Old 06-25-21, 11:37 AM
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Nice, but no Holland Mechanics.

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Old 06-25-21, 05:41 PM
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Why do people assume RIMS are that perfect?
I've seen 1mm variation from "bead" to bead" on cheap, NEW rims. Often with most the variation off to one side or the other.
You can often get an idea by simply taking an adjustable wrench to use as a go/no go gauge.
Adjust the jaws and slide around the rim.
You'll find high & low spots. Often enough to make dial indicators a waste of time.
I have never purchased rims for my wheel builds that are cheap. .0394/1mm Is an absurdly large amount for a rim to be out on a finished wheel. I use dial indicators because they make the work easier to accomplish. Not a waste of time at all.
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Old 06-25-21, 10:47 PM
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This one is purtty! A Perfect Truing Stand - Wheel Fanatyk
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Old 06-27-21, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
Why do people assume RIMS are that perfect?
I've seen 1mm variation from "bead" to bead" on cheap, NEW rims. Often with most the variation off to one side or the other.
You can often get an idea by simply taking an adjustable wrench to use as a go/no go gauge.
Adjust the jaws and slide around the rim.
You'll find high & low spots. Often enough to make dial indicators a waste of time.
That's a cheap rim to have 1 mm of variation as the rim rolls around. That said, every rim I've ever measured has some variation, usually a bulge or pinch near the weld/pin seam. When I was at a wheel builder years ago we would put every new rim on a thick steel table with a hand operated press and correct that before the wheels were strung up. In theory a stand measuring on both sides could at least center the lump, but better to not have it.

The Park TS-3 with a few dial indicators mounted has a soft spot in my heart, but they still don't perfectly center. That VAR is pretty cool. Finish aside, I've yet to use a VAR tool I didn't like.
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Old 06-27-21, 09:11 PM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by davidad View Post
The P&K Lie which I mentioned is awesome. From all accounts it is the nicest stand out there and potentially what I may land on at some point but no digital monster stand. You can get it differently anodized should you wish.
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Old 10-14-21, 11:26 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
True, but there are some advantages as one goes up in value of the stand from speed to accuracy.

Ideally that electronic truing stand would be 100% self centering. Measure the OLD distance, measure the width of the rim, and center accordingly. Perhaps even allow one to program in a slight offset for dished wheels if one wishes.

In a home shop, it may not matter if it takes a while to true a wheel.

But, I could imagine the benefits for someone that does a lot, like in a wheel shop or small manufacturer. If one could double an employee's production doing full time wheel building, it might pay for itself in a matter of months.

That machine does appear as if it can probably deal with different rim sizes, perhaps with a different table. However, I don't see any provisions for laterally truing mounted wheels (which was one of Park's arguments for their newer larger truing stands). Not that different rollers couldn't be used with tires.
hey, can you help me with some problems ?
i have this machine at my bike shop. I truing the wheel perfect but it's a little offset when i put the wheel on the bike. Is there any settings? You write: Perhaps even allow one to program in a slight offset for dished wheels if one wishes. But i don't have that program or button or setting, center offset ( mittenversatz) like in the video. Where can i find it, that setting ? I can't attach a photo, cuz i'm new here. Sorry for my english. Have a great day.

Last edited by Andreescu; 10-14-21 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 10-14-21, 12:28 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Andreescu View Post
hey, can you help me with some problems ?
i have this machine at my bike shop. I truing the wheel perfect but it's a little offset when i put the wheel on the bike. Is there any settings? You write: Perhaps even allow one to program in a slight offset for dished wheels if one wishes. But i don't have that program or button or setting, center offset ( mittenversatz) like in the video. Where can i find it, that setting ? I can't attach a photo, cuz i'm new here. Sorry for my english. Have a great day.
What type of truing stand are you using?

My post was theoretical. Ideally an electronic truing stand could determine exact centering of a wheel. Although, there have been questions whether tire inflation on a dished wheel can impact dishing, so that may also need to be accounted for.

My current truing stand pictured above is 50 years old without any electronic gizmos. Old, but SOLID. In theory, if one is building a dozen identical wheels, one can set it up once, and repeat.

As far as "the wheel perfect but it's a little offset when i put the wheel on the bike."

There are a few possible issues:
  • Wheel is not properly dished. A dishing tool will help you verify.
  • The wheel is, in fact perfect, but the bike is not. Brakes off center, frame bent, bad dropouts, etc.

There is a dishing tool which you should use if you are building several wheels.



It quickly tells you if the rim is properly centered.

If you don't have the dishing tool, an easy check is to flip the wheel backwards in the bike. If the problem follows the wheel, it is a wheel problem. On the other hand, if the problem remains in the same spot, it is a bike problem. This check can generally be done with either the front or rear.

Once you isolate the problem, you can take steps to fix it.

If the problem is the truing stand not self-centering, more details are needed about what stand you are using. If it is an electronic system, talk to the manufacturer.

If this is a theoretical problem as my theoretical post above, then I can give more comments. But, I believe that a highly automated stand should be able to determine how to properly center the wheel using the axle width (OLD, over locknut dimension), as well as the rim width. And, possibly a fudge factor for the tire inflation.
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