Daniel4

Regardless of what you think about bike lanes, drivers can't spit, abuse or drive you off the road when you're in one and they can't get at you, which is what the article and this thread is all about.

urbanknight

I had a $40 one that sucked before I bought the good ones that mount on my bar and seatpost. Maybe I'll start using it as a decoy.

That is incorrect, and if you go back and read this thread's responses, you'll understand why.

genec

The irony being that folks headed off to their favorite sporting event, dressed in team uniform jerseys, face makeup and with big foam fingers are considered "normal."

But someone wearing functional clothing for cycling, bright jersey for visibility and a helmet for safety while commuting to work is "funny."

Meanwhile, wearing a totally useless colored silk dressing around your neck and a hot jacket in an office... again, "normal." Go figure.

genec

As I look at this example, I notice no intersections or driveways until the well marked green area ahead... that area is supposed to signal to all road users that there is a possible conflict there and for motorists especially to watch as they turn across the BL. (cyclists take note... cars will cross here.)

The problem is that these features are relatively new, and motorists have little if any training on what they mean or how to handle them... and drivers' ed and the driving tests tend to gloss over these things anyway. Thus we have a very poorly trained driving public who feels entitled to the road in their rolling couch and they have little respect for other road users and pedestrians.

We need to train drivers better. Period. PSAs on TV, better testing at the DMV, and stricter enforcement of rules.

urbanknight

Not the best example, but it's what I found on Google (maybe I'll try to get a better pic next time I go there). Once you cross that intersection, there's two driveways for a shopping center and then another one for a bank. Then you cross a major street (Nordhoff) and there is another shopping center with 2 driveways, then an intersection, then a driveway to 2 restaurants, another driveway to another restaurant, a driveway to a shopping center, and another intersection. This falls just short of a half mile, and it continues in this fashion for a while. There is green paint at most of the driveways and intersections, but I have already witnessed 1 cyclist fly over a hood and 4 other close calls in the few years it's been there. When I slow way down to check for riders coming, I get honked at by the vehicles behind me (their problem, but still). If the bike lane was somewhere visible or cyclists just had to take the right lane like they used to, I would only have to slow down that much when there actually is a cyclist.

A less busy street that parallels this one had one lane in each direction turned into a (door zone) bike lane, and drivers hate it because it has caused more traffic flow problems while have a relatively small number of cyclists taking it. Both of these streets were safer and had less traffic hinderances when they had no bike lane and the handful of cyclists just took the right lane.

I agree with you there, but also feel that training drivers better would make magic green paint and "protected" bike lanes unnecessary in most situations because they would be watching for cyclists anyway.

urbanknight

I found a better one. You can see multiple driveways where cars will be unable to see if a cyclist is in the bike lane if vehicles are parked there (and I'm wondering if they roped that off for this pic, because I have NEVER seen all of those spots unoccupied before)

JoeyBike

Just part of the program cycling around motor vehicles. You'll harden to it or find another way to get around.

genec

Except there are no parking zones around those turning areas...

But I digress... drivers won't look anyway... regardless of green paint, regardless of cyclists flashing lights and bright clothing... drivers are impervious to the world outside, and feel that the road belongs to them and to hell with others, including pedestrians. (the latter is odd because as soon as one leaves the "rolling couch," they themselves become "vulnerable pedestrians..." likely cussing at motorists that fail to see them.

It really all comes down to training drivers better.

I cycled in Oulu Finland and quite enjoyed their separated cycling network... but in certain places there were "intersections" where a cyclist and motorist would meet, at street level, in residential areas... I discovered that the motorists tended to stop and wait for me to cross, in spite of my American habit of stopping for the cars. The drivers were simply trained that cyclists had ROW in these situations. In the US of A we tend to under-train motorists and then emphasize "flow" over "safety" and then wonder why we have so many entitled drivers.

We could do a lot better at training and testing motorists... and emphasizing drivers' responsibility. We just don't. It is a failure of our society.

urbanknight

Ah yes, I guess that wasn't as good an example as I thought. I promise you there are driveways right after parking spaces along this street. But yeah, they don't look anyway.

Troul 

Training (IMO) will not solve it. Building infrastructure that defaults to engaging in better logic & driving habits will institute a safer environment (just my opinion).

urbanknight

In your opinion, what does this infrastructure look like? Because I feel like we are going backwards with these door zone bike lanes, peek-a-boo bike lanes, and magic green paint.

Troul 

creating efficient routes that appeal to cyclists that would deter them from using roads. Lowering MPH be or lower than 35 MPH with signals that favor the higher volume side longer before changing to let cross traffic across. Make more 4-way traffic signal stops be "no turn on red" ... there is more & it would require an unknown amount of funding to make it happen.
The change to have more "no turn on red" & also the signal light sensor time delay changes could be rolled out rather quickly without much pushback & funding. So many motorist just blow a red when they don't have the No turn on red sign. Other's might roll stop that type of sign, but if the state needed honest traffic ticket cash, that would be an open shut case.

genec

Those very things emphasize safety, vice flow... don'tcha know "flow" is more important. Motorists cannot be kept waiting for red lights, lower speeds and "other road users..." That is just not the 'Merican way.

We could indeed make the roads safer... with perhaps the first step being lowering speed limits. That 15 percentile rule is just plain nuts and encourages speeding.

urbanknight

Yes. I have been driving with a dashcam for a half year now, and probably could have made a half hour video of just drivers blowing through rights on red.

My local area recently changed some intersections to give the walk sign 2 seconds before the green light, so the pedestrian can at least get visibly into the intersection before the drivers start going through. Then again, I have seen tons of pedestrians staring at their phones and stepping off late anyway, often without looking for a driver who might have figured they weren't going to cross after all.

Troul 

We have a few old (yet useful) ped overpasses that span a 4 lane highway (not talking expressway) & they are something I'd advocate having rather than a timed crosswalk for such a span of roadway. For the 2 lane roadways, it makes a difference what that road is often seeing for traffic type. Is it for Karens morning coffee or Ole Reds iron plate long haul shipment, or both? If it's both or just that foo foo coffee, then lower the MPH & make a nice wide paved shoulder on both sides. If that is not physically possible, then why is there a business there? What if an employee needed to rely on there nike's to get to work?

rsbob 

A potential solution to the separated lane with vehicle parking on the outside is to not allow parking by two car lengths APPROACHING each driveway/intersection. This would give drivers visibility of cyclists in the bike lane. It may piss off motorists/business owners about less on street parking, but too bad so sad when it comes to potentially saving lives.

rsbob 

Don’t travel to Germany or Holland because it will frustrate the hell out of you because of their countless miles of separated bikeways. Of course over there, exercise and being outdoor are revered while here, every square inch that can be made to make a buck is revered.

Paul Barnard

Help me out. What would be wrong with riding there?

Paul Barnard

I am more of a fight back kind of person. Cussing or shouting is one thing. I don't react well to be endangered or assaulted.

urbanknight

I don't think that's enough. A cyclist going 30 mph (a reasonable speed on a modest descent) would pass those two car lengths in a little more than 1 second... not enough time for the driver to react.

It looks perfect with no traffic and no debris, but throw in a cyclist to pass, glass in the bike lane, or a tree branch blocking the path, and that's a pain to get around.

rsbob 

There is no panacia other other than completely removed bike lanes or streets/a lane completely closed to vehicles. I too have ridden miles and miles while commuting of city bike lanes with debris, glass, mufflers and all sorts of crap that never gets picked up. There is no perfect solution but being separated from cars is better than how I used to ride downtown Seattle sharing the lane with buses, dump and delivery trucks and countless commuters. It was urban cycling warfare at its best and worst.

Paul Barnard

Yah, without maintenance it'd get nasty with debris in a hurry. As far as passing goes, I reckon it would be just as frustrating for a car to be caught up behind a slower moving cyclist as it would for a cyclist to be caught up behind a slower moving cyclist. Our world is getting more and more crowded. I'd say to a bicyclist the same thing I'd say to a motorist. You don't have a right to blast through life without ever having to lift off the gas.

urbanknight

Yeah, but completely removed lanes would take way too much to implement in most cities. So we must find something else.

urbanknight

Yet if that road just had a wider single lane, a cyclist could move over to pass another cyclist or debris, and could get back next to the curb to let motor vehicles pass. In such a case, none of the road users would have to wait more than a few seconds.

Troul 

a homeowner in my area is not allowed to have bushes, fencing, anything past a certain point from the house frontage.... Pretty sure businesses have something like that too, but it's just not enforced by code.... just like A LOT of houses in my area. Impeding view is a massive problem. Just like the lights that are "assisting" the display of a sign for a business or apartment. Those ground lights are 50% effective at their job, while the remaining light is glaring you right in the eyes (while on a bicycle or in a vehicle). I asked the business owners if they could consider repositioning the light down or away from the road a little & got laughed at. The letter to the Code Enforcer fell on blind eyes evidentially.