cxwrench

You are both basically clueless. Disc brakes are definitely NOT 'fundamentally unnecessary'...you wouldn't need a pile of spare rims if you'd have had disc brakes...and the Open Pro is not a 'fragile' rim.

Koyote

So, rim brakes cause rims to wear out.

But disc brakes don't cause rims to wear out.

No.

Ding ding ding! Rotor replacement costs less, and takes ten minutes.

This whole discussion misses the point, which is that people don't choose disc brakes for cost reasons. They choose them because the do steep descents in nasty conditions, because they need more tire clearance than can be had with rim brakes, and because (in the case of hydraulic disc brakes) they want massive stopping power with only light pressure from one or two fingers.

Dave Mayer

People choose discs on road bikes because they are transplanted mountain bikers, and erroneously believe that they need inappropriate ballast on their road bikes such as dropper posts, suspension, fat tires and discs. Your shop is definitely going to push discs hard because it ties customers to the shop for pad replacement, regular bleeding, rotor replacements, rotor straightening and rotor decontamination. At our shop we see way too much of this; in that it takes an hour to fix squealing discs because someone simply dabbed a rotor with greasy fingers. Plus discs add 20% on to the cost of a new bike.

If you are an all-season commuter riding a Surley with a rack and heavy panniers, then I admit you'll want discs. But discs on a go-fast road bike is an inconsistency; they add at least 2 pounds of weight, particularly on porky wheels. Plus they make the fork heavy and non-compliant, due to the bulking-up needed to deal with disc braking forces.

LarrySellerz

No they dont unless you do something negligent

Seattle Forrest

Brakes are 4 fakes

znomit

They mostly choose them because they don't have much of a choice any more.

Koyote

I'm no disc brake evangelist. But what some folks like Dave Mayer don't seem to grasp, is that not all cyclists ride road racing bikes exclusively. MTBs, loaded touring bikes, gravel bikes, etc, all benefit from disc brakes.

On a road bike, sure, I might prefer rim brakes...Maybe. But you're right: those options are narrowing. If I really wanted it, I'd get a custom built steel frame.

bblair

UPDATE: I was in my LBS today (that's another sad story that I will post about later) and he showed me how the rear rim was indeed worn. Almost concave, compared to the front. I do go through rear brake pads more often that front.

After online research, including a lot here on BF, here is where I am now:

Psimet wheels with either Industry Nine or Chris King hubs. CK seem like best of the best, but I9 are a little less costly and I love the look. Also straight pull.
I9 wheels with their rims. But so many products, kind of choice paralysis. My LBS is listed as a dealer, but their website does not list any rim brake options.
Chris King wheels. I know about their hubs, but nothing about their rims, and they only make one.

Not looking for the cheapest, nor the most expensive. Somewhere in the middle.

SoSmellyAir

This is an unusual wear pattern.

Seattle Forrest

It's usually the front brake track that wears out first.

Seattle Forrest

There's no other choice anymore because supply follows demand.

It's a cool conspiracy theory though.

bblair

That's what I thought.

Do I use my rear significantly more than the front? I don't know...maybe...never thought about it.

So it looks like new wheels. And shifters, but that is another thread.

A prediction, based on recent history: I will need a new furnace and my wife's car will die.

bblair

I just received an email reply from Industry Nine: they no longer make rim brake compatible wheels. So that narrows it down...a little.

Koyote

And hopefully you learned the technique: hold a straight edge up to the rim and look for that concavity.

​​​​​​Try to use your front brake more. It provides more stopping power.

​​​​​​I9 and CK hubs are among the more expensive options. Definitely not in the middle.

Koyote

The time to buy a new furnace is before the old one dies...Unless you like being cold and having your pipes burst, if you're in that kind of climate.

Ditto the car. Best to replace before you absolutely have to.

But hey, compared to the costs of those two items, bike wheels are cheap. So you should definitely buy new wheels.

Carbonfiberboy 

When I wanted a good set of wheels with a combination of components that I couldn't find in a built wheel, I learned to build my own. Turned out to be cheaper and I got better wheels.

bblair

That's the answer I was looking for!

Nachoman

Is it fair to say that it would be time to replace a rim when you can no longer see the rim indicator?
Or put another way, there would be no need to replace the rim if you can still see the rim indicator?

holytrousers

Yes, and that would be enough

L.A. Saiga

buy once cry once

Psimet2001 

Yes rims that are rim brake will wear out. I have seen a lot wear out over the years. Some can wear them out in a couple of years (riding over 20,000 miles and riding year round in all conditions in the snowy midwest for example) and others will have a set that seems to last longer than the life of the bike (like me who struggles to get in a few thousand miles a year and spreads it over 4-5 bikes).

Wear indicators in rims are common now but weren't until the last 6 or so years. Usually a wear indicator is a round spot that almost looks like a hole. It's made by a small end mill after they machine the sidewall/brake track. It's set to a controlled depth meaning when it "disappears" that the sidewall is now too thin and should be replaced. Problem with that is usually people don't look at the sidewalls and notice them when they are new so they go looking for them when they "think" the rim is worn out. When they can't find them it proves nothing. For all they knew the rims never had them to begin with. Not a failsafe design.

Yes, fronts usually wear out sooner....when it's on bikes with riders who know about and use the superior braking power of the front brake. These are usually riders who ride fast and know how to stop fast or riders that live in hilly areas. Those that live in flat places like...oh...Chicago... will often wear out the rear first. It's because there is never really a need for a lot of braking and the rear is used more to help scrub speed instead of to actually stop.

Thanks for the shout out - hopefully I got your reply back to you already. It's our busiest season of the year and I seem to only come out here as a distraction at the beginning of a super busy day or during the slowest time of the year.

More and more companies are leaving the rim brake space. Industry Nine left in 2019/2020. Sucks because they were nice hubs for rim brake. Chris King has been trying to leave the space for a while. During the pandemic it was taking about 6-9 months for rim brake hubsets from them. Early on they just flat out told us, "we don't have them and honestly we just don't know if we will ever have them again". About a year later is was explained that they outsell rim brake hubs by a factor of something like 30 or 80 to 1. They also reduced the options. Available in silver or black only and only in 28, 32. They still list 24hole on their site for the front but it says, "Matte Available in 24h, 28h, and 32h" - a color they also no longer offer. They have effectively removed themselves from the rim brake game. Right now there are still options and honestly because of all the shortages of parts and bikes we have made a ton of rim brake wheels over the last few years as everyone seems to be trying to keep their rim brake stuff going until the market and supply is better.

I don't understand some of the trolling above about why rim vs disc stuff. Disc was chosen because of the elimination of liability in rims. It's also one of the big reasons they are now going hookless as well. It's also because the mtb simply dominates the bicycle industry worldwide. All these people who live in places that have elevation just think the whole world prefers to ride mountain bikes. They simply carried the tech over. Are disc brakes needed on road bikes? Absolutely not.....but this is a bit like lamenting "innovation" in other consumer products. The change has been made and it's not ever going to go backwards. Rim brake options will get fewer and become lower quality and cheaper but will always be available just like we will always have super cheap 26" tires available forever...because there are so many already out there. Turns out you can't buy Dura Ace 10 speed replacement parts new anymore either.

Dave Mayer

? Much of what the bike industry does is motivated for legal butt-covering. But please explain why discs would result in lower liability? Is it because:

• Wear on the brake track (over years) could cause the rims to fail, causing injury,
• A single broke spoke on a low-spoke count wheel could result in a suddenly and seriously untrue wheel, which could jam up in the (rim) brakes?
• Other?

I agree that discs reduce the above risks, but the first risk is mitigated by a slight amount of maintenance awareness and attention, and the second from buying quality gear. If a spoke breaks because you collided with a teammate in a bunch sprint, then you would have gone down anyway.

As far as hookless being safer or leading to lower liability risk, I cannot see that. These wheels operate in a narrow range of inflation pressures, with a limited number of tire choices. There is no way I'm going to ride a clincher wheelset with hookless rims, in which if I inflate beyond X PSI, the tires blow off. Or pay a bike manufacturer extortionist prices for their 'approved' tire choices, which only they can provide.

Mind you, I ride mostly on tubulars, as I have this deep fear of a blown tire while descending at warp speeds.

cxwrench

Yes.
And the second isn't even close to being true. There are many approved tires for hookless rims and you definitely don't have get the from the wheel maker.

79pmooney

I wore out rims with brake wear regularly in my commuting days riding year 'round in Portland, OR. Less than 2 full winters. Blew a sidewall out once when I was negligent on the re-rim. (I was in the house, bike in the garage.) I enjoy building wheels so this isn't much of a hardship. My spokes start breaking on the third rim but so few it isn't an issue. (32 or more spokes. Broken spoke is not a big deal.)

Now this is in the northwest. Oregon rock is almost entirely volcanic and the dust from it is both pervasive and very abrasive. And like a poster above mentioned, it is the wet roads but no rain that kills them. I regularly hose my bikes off with a gentle spray ans blast through the fork/stays and brake shoes to clean the pads but the outside hose gets shut down for the frost months and I can almost watch the rims wear.

Psimet2001 

It's because of carbon. Not Aluminum per se. Carbon brake tracks on rim brakes will always present problems for rim design. They are a source of weakness both in their ability to stay in one piece and not melt/open up as well as in overall weight, shape, etc. With disc you don't have to be confined on rim shape, depth. You have more options resin and layup wise as well. A steel rotor performs more reliable braking in all conditions than a carbon brake track. Carbon is a thermal insulator and not a thermal conductor so there are all sorts of things you have to do to get it to brake decently.

With hookless - which still doesn't really have solid benefits for the rider but has extreme benefits for the manufacturer - You don't have to run soft molding for the hook which due to its nature would result in a lot of quality issues and scrap. Designing a system that works without the hook allows for lower cost, less scrap, and at a point in the future when the tire and rim guys finally settle on actual reliable standards it will result in systems that will stay together better than the old clincher standard.

Tubulars - I am one of the few still left in this country that sells a lot of tubular setups and tires and glues piles of them. So much so that most the tubular companies have setups or OE arrangements with me. Anymore most of the tubulars are made in a smaller handful of factories.

I have special equipment that allows me to more readily process tubular gluing. I buy more glue than most.

All this said not even my knowledge, experience and passion will ever convince riders or this industry to go back in the direction of tubulars. There is still solid applications for tubulars: Cyclocross racing at all levels, Track racing. Road racing at the highest level. All of the yahoos that somehow think that stiffer casings and liners, etc required to make tubeless even remotely work at road pressures are so hell bent on making it a thing that they will completely forget the benefits of tubulars and sell their soul to make them disappear. Personally....I don't care anymore. You can't piss into the wind for long before realizing you're just getting wet and the wind is still blowing.

You ride tubulars. Fine. Have fun. I do it for racing. I recommend everyone racing cross or track to ride them for racing. Riding them for a daily use on the road or on gravel....no. You'll justify whatever you want but it's a waste of time. It would be like me trying to convince people that driving my 1928 Model A as a commuter is better because it limits me to 55 mph or slower so statistically I am safer in any wreck that I might end up in. Clinchers are fine on the road and have been for a long ling time. Tubeless is still stupid on the road but so are disc brakes and those ships have sailed. Just embrace the new overlord.

I took issue with your assertion above that shops are somehow scheming to sell disc brakes to make more money. None of us choose the brakes. We sell what's made. Customers have been asking for disc because they think they want it and need it. I'd rather work on rim brakes any day of the year. Over the long term they are infinitely more reliable than disc. They are easier to set up and maintain.

Having been in this industry for a long time I can assure you there is no illuminati of OEMs scheming to come up with things that make people buy new stuff all the time. They just aren't that smart or organized. They are constantly trying to make what they think customers want. They are hell bent on coming up with something new that customers will interpret as innovative and doing that before the next company does. Stacking all these tech changes on top of each other has created a situation in the last 4-5 years where upgrading just isn't possible - it's new bike time. That's what's made a lot of this change untenable for many.

We are reaching a tipping point. Those that work in this industry just simply don't make enough money to continue to participate in the sport it supports. A good buddy of mine who works for one of the big companies said the other day, "I can't afford anything above mid level on what we make and that's paying employee prices". ....this isn't good... but that's talk for the podcast.