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Tragic story leads to change

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Tragic story leads to change

Old 08-24-22, 12:39 PM
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Jan Feetz
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Tragic story leads to change

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Old 08-24-22, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Jan Feetz View Post
Your link is messed up.
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Old 08-24-22, 02:46 PM
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The link worked fine for me
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Old 08-24-22, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
The link worked fine for me
That's weird; I see a big blank space in his post, and the video in mine.
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Old 08-24-22, 04:34 PM
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It's blank for me.
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Old 08-24-22, 05:31 PM
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works for me
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Old 08-24-22, 05:42 PM
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I'm pessimistic. The good news is that the politicians are recognizing the streets need to be safer. The bad news is that they will have to go through the backlash from drivers just like every city in the world who had to go through their own transition. Only time will tell if the city will stick to their g*ns or wash down all safety proposals to appease drivers (who are also voters).

You know what happens everytime a bill is introduced after a mass sh**ting. The same dynamics occur in regards to safe streets too.
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Old 08-24-22, 06:11 PM
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The title and the whole newscast makes it sound mostly like it's bikes and ebikes crashing into each other that is killing people! "Crashes involving bikes" and such. I assume they mean cars and trucks are involved and killing cyclists but they never actually say so other than one reference to "educating drivers."

..and no, Carlsbad, I don't think education is going to do much because the audience in unreceptive. You have to change the infrastructure - minimize interactions, increase physical buffers, lower speeds.
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Old 08-25-22, 01:55 PM
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From what I see now, 99% of the two wheel clueless clods are on e-bikes and pogo-stick scooters. The latter's whole purpose is to clown around with your friends.
A couple years ago I had a shoulder crash with one of them on a narrow sidewalk, going to a bridge only used by cars. He was not going single file.
The last fatal here was 2 years ago by a new e-bike user who should have known better of risks. He was a senior fireman. I guess he didn't expect the trailer behind the 5 ton truck.
Many buying e-bikes are not graduating from pedal bikes, IMO. Or maybe they haven't been on bikes in years.

Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 08-25-22 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 08-25-22, 02:36 PM
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Part of the problem is that the vehicles depicted in the Youtube video/newscast have more in common with motorcycles than they do bicycles:




But unlike true motorcycles, they don't require a license, and people (including the children featured in the clip) feel free to drive them through crosswalks, on sidewalks, etc.
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Old 08-25-22, 04:53 PM
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Many of the ebikes in the video appeared to have throttles, where no pedaling is required. I think these might be class II ebikes. I too, think this makes them more like electric motorcycles rather than bikes. There were no details on the accidents, but I suspect in many cases, the ebike riders where going too fast simply because the power allows them the ability to go too fast. Throw in the fact the bikes, at times, rightfully shouldn't be restricted to roads, and it seems like an accident ready to happen.

My wife has a class I ebike and those require pedaling and only assist up to 20 MPH. It works out perfectly, you can't really go too fast, generally speaking, and you at least have to pedal to get the power assist.
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Old 08-26-22, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Part of the problem is that the vehicles depicted in the Youtube video/newscast have more in common with motorcycles than they do bicycles:
Indeed, notice the rider on the left in the preview has both feet at the same level, indicating his feet are not on functional pedals. nevermind, turns out he's actually scootering with he left foot on the right pedal and right leg hanging free

But unlike true motorcycles, they don't require a license, and people (including the children featured in the clip) feel free to drive them through crosswalks, on sidewalks, etc.
Exactly

Originally Posted by Mtracer View Post
There were no details on the accidents, but I suspect in many cases, the ebike riders where going too fast simply because the power allows them the ability to go too fast. Throw in the fact the bikes, at times, rightfully shouldn't be restricted to roads, and it seems like an accident ready to happen.
Yes, the combination of speed and inexperience can definitely be an issue.

My wife has a class I ebike and those require pedaling and only assist up to 20 MPH. It works out perfectly, you can't really go too fast, generally speaking, and you at least have to pedal to get the power assist.
20 mph is really far too fast for many traffic dense situations, on either roads or especially paths.


But that's kind of beside the point - there are plenty of specific situations where even 10 mph is unsafely fast for someone without a highly developed sense of where the dangers in interacting with traffic they need to watch and slow for actually are. And unfortunately, a lot of popular design formats for so-called "bike lanes" tend to create even more of these situations where the design of the bike infrastructure itself encourages or even requires inexperienced cyclists to naively engage in dangerous habits such as:
  • Passing stopped or slowing traffic at a speed no one expects when the big obvious vehicles blocking the view aren't moving
  • Entering intersections in an unexpected position for through traffic, eg from a lane, path or sidewalk on the wrong side of a turning lane.
  • Riding through intersections or past driveways while moving against traffic on sidewalk or worse a path or lane unwisely designed counterflow
  • Riding in the door zone, or even squeezing between a vehicle that's stopped to load/unload and the curb or parked cars
These are situations where even a child on a pedal bike can easily end up going too fast for the conditions. Given someone any sort of motor and it only becomes worse.

Unfortunately, we've decided against making any real effort to educate users on the sources of danger, what to watch for, and prudent choice of speeds, and gotten distracted instead into pretending that the only useful solution is to slowly construct routes that actually encourage many of these dangerously naive habits.

Really what we should be doing with the electric two wheeled vehicle technology is encouraging light duty, registered, insured electric motorcycles/mopeds as a direct replacement for conventional cars, using the same routes and infrastructure that cars do. Select bike bypass routes can make sense, and recreational bike routes can make sense. But there's no way we can retrofit into an already built an environment a complete alternate network that goes to so many of the places it needs to in a way that's safe to use even at average pedal bike speeds; the only thing we can plausibly offer that's safe at the sorts of 20+ mph speeds desired by someone who buys something with a motor to commute on, are the actual roads themselves.

Last edited by UniChris; 08-27-22 at 04:24 AM.
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Old 08-27-22, 06:02 PM
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E-bike have allowed many that havent cycled before to get on bikes and ride. Being new riders they are not experienced in all the safety rules a cyclist should know.

If they kept in mind every single car out there is driven by a nut. and wants to hit them, it would be a good idea to keep in mind while riding.
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Old 08-27-22, 07:30 PM
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I agree, there are a lot of E-Bikes in that film clip.

The news clip doesn't differentiate between pedal bikes and e-bikes being involved with the accidents.

So, considering safety is important. And, it is more than just strapping on a skull cap.

I like the idea of safety training for young riders (or any new riders).

One thing I've wondered about e-bikes is if they are able to sneak up on vehicle's right side. So, say if I drive 1/2 mile on a road, I'll know if I've passed any bicycles before making a right hand turn at a stop light. On the other hand, if an e-bike is cruising 30 to 40 MPH up the bike lane, then passing on the right, it is possible they could sneak up and be missed.
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Old 08-27-22, 08:53 PM
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e-bicycles imo are motorized equipment. pathways & sidewalks etc laws should not treat them any different.
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Old 08-28-22, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
e-bicycles imo are motorized equipment. pathways & sidewalks etc laws should not treat them any different.
If they can't keep up with traffic, then I have no problem with them being in a bike lane. But, I do think they should have the speed capped at 20 MPH.
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Old 08-28-22, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
e-bicycles imo are motorized equipment. pathways & sidewalks etc laws should not treat them any different.
Pedal assist class I ebikes are very different than a throttle controlled vehicle, electric or gas. Yes, there are many who use the assist to ride too fast for the conditions. But, I see plenty of riders on standard bikes doing the same thing.
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Old 08-28-22, 12:33 PM
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I'm reluctant to hate on ebikes because my riding buddy, 79 years old and on oxygen 24/7 after 20 years of COPD, could not ride without battery and pedal assist. We ride MUPs in two different communities. Yes, there are standard bikes riding what I consider too fast for paths with walkers, joggers, and kids. But throttle ebikes with big tires seem to be ridden by those without much experience on pedal bikes and in excess of the posted speed limits. One passed me on the right without warning, no helmet, earbuds so couldn't or wouldn't respond to my request for passing notification. I have no answers.
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Old 08-28-22, 12:56 PM
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A lot of this discussion is specifically about ebike and their riders.

My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.

Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
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Old 08-28-22, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
If they can't keep up with traffic, then I have no problem with them being in a bike lane. But, I do think they should have the speed capped at 20 MPH.
painted line bicycle lanes that "sharing" the road is fine, but the designated thru ways that peds use (walking/running, riding 100% self powered bicycles, etc) should be off limits to E-bicycles. That being said, those that are E-Bicyle users might start writing their congress for more & improved Bicycle lanes.
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Old 08-29-22, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
A lot of this discussion is specifically about ebike and their riders.

My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.

Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
It is hard to say. People get frustrated to be pedaling along sweating up a storm and then have a person blow by on an E-Bike without pedaling a bit.

But there may be some real differences between the groups of cyclists.

Most bikes in the garages either just stay in the garages, or perhaps are taken out for a mile or two around neighborhoods or around parks.

Those that are doing 5+, or perhaps 10+ mile each way commutes on public roads are few and far between. And the riders get a lot of experience on the road.

Put E-Bikes in the mix, and the bikes are moving faster than the more experienced pedal cyclists. And, suddenly they feel they have the ability to go anywhere. I.E. further distances and around more cars.

Potentially opening up longer distances to younger cyclists.

Then, there are also higher speed bicycle/pedestrian interactions.

So, yes, it is possible that E-Bikes could be a problem. But, really it is also something that needs statistical analysis.

I bet one could get some kind of radio magnetic signal from E-Bikes, and get a pretty accurate count of them on different paths. Then look at actual crash data for different groups of cyclists.
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