Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

QR Rear wheel shift in frame?

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

QR Rear wheel shift in frame?

Old 09-04-22, 10:22 AM
  #1  
hevysrf
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times in 19 Posts
QR Rear wheel shift in frame?

My son has an older carbon Scott CR1, he's pretty strong, recently he has complained his rear rear wheel shifts in the frame under load.

Not always, but sometimes enough to cause the tire to rub on the non drive side chain stay. He has a new QR coming.
Is this a problem with his tightening of the QR's? Worn dropouts?

What is your method for tensioning QRs?
Would a better quality bike's dropouts be precise enough to prevent this?
hevysrf is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 10:31 AM
  #2  
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Posts: 30,225

Bikes: Catrike 559 I own some others but they don't get ridden very much.

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1570 Post(s)
Liked 637 Times in 358 Posts
1. Tell your son to get a genuine Shimano or Campy quick release. The aftermarket quick releases that have the mechanism obviously exposed don't grab nearly as tightly.
2. To tighten a QR hold the lever out parallel to the axel and tighten the nut on the opposite side until it is finger tight. Then push the QR lever so it is perpendicular to the axel. Make sure you position the QR lever so that you can get a finger behind it when you need to release it.
__________________
My greatest fear is all of my kids standing around my coffin and talking about "how sensible" dad was.
Retro Grouch is offline  
Likes For Retro Grouch:
Old 09-04-22, 12:31 PM
  #3  
BobbyG
Senior Member
 
BobbyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 5,722

Bikes: 2015 Charge Plug, 2007 Dahon Boardwalk, 1997 Nishiki Blazer, 1984 Nishiki International, 2006 Felt F65

Mentioned: 53 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1296 Post(s)
Liked 1,403 Times in 702 Posts
I had that problem on my old 12-speed and it turned out to be a broken axel. It performed fine, but deflected a lot under heavy load. I'd check for that.
BobbyG is offline  
Likes For BobbyG:
Old 09-04-22, 12:45 PM
  #4  
icemilkcoffee 
Senior Member
 
icemilkcoffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,518
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 882 Post(s)
Liked 775 Times in 466 Posts
Originally Posted by BobbyG View Post
I had that problem on my old 12-speed and it turned out to be a broken axel. It performed fine, but deflected a lot under heavy load. I'd check for that.
Agreed. The Scott CR1 is a relatively new carbon frame, and not an old steel frame with adjustable sliding dropouts. The axle should not move at all.
icemilkcoffee is online now  
Likes For icemilkcoffee:
Old 09-04-22, 01:19 PM
  #5  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,054
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5564 Post(s)
Liked 8,450 Times in 3,652 Posts
As Retro Grouch stated, get internal cam skewers and clamp them down tightly. Thatíll likely be the end of it.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 09-04-22, 01:46 PM
  #6  
hevysrf
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times in 19 Posts
Thanks, I've just repacked the bearings for him, axle is good.
Internal campagnolo QR's ordered.
hevysrf is offline  
Likes For hevysrf:
Old 09-04-22, 01:56 PM
  #7  
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,766
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 696 Post(s)
Liked 587 Times in 380 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
As Retro Grouch stated, get internal cam skewers and clamp them down tightly. That’ll likely be the end of it.
I agree with bikes with horizontal drop outs, an internal cam QR, clamped very tight is essential. An external cam QR just won't cut it (in my experience).

But a modern bike with vertical drop outs? i've never had any shifting, ever with external cam QRs. Is it possible?

Originally Posted by hevysrf View Post
Thanks, I've just repacked the bearings for him, axle is good.
Internal campagnolo QR's ordered.
hevysrf can you tell us if it's a horizontal drop out or vertical? The Campy QRs aren't a waste, but I dunno, I wouldn't think they'd be needed with vertical drop outs. I could be wrong and will welcome corrections.
Camilo is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 02:33 PM
  #8  
Daniel4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,243

Bikes: Sekine 1979 ten speed racer

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1360 Post(s)
Liked 510 Times in 342 Posts
Rear wheels shift all the time regardless if the wheel is quick release or nut. After you centre the wheel between the frame (and rim brakes if you habe them), keep an eye that it's not shifting as you tighten the nut each turn or half turn. Sometimes it may be handy to jam a spacer each side of the wheel to keep it in place as you tighten. The problem you have is that the qr wasn't tight enough before you closed the lever.

Don't tighten it too much that you can close the lever. The lever should go all the way parallel to the frame and not sticking out. If it's sticking out, it's too tight.
Daniel4 is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 03:49 PM
  #9  
cxwrench
Senior Member
 
cxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,702

Bikes: lots

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked 2,821 Times in 1,444 Posts
Originally Posted by Daniel4 View Post
Rear wheels shift all the time regardless if the wheel is quick release or nut. After you centre the wheel between the frame (and rim brakes if you habe them), keep an eye that it's not shifting as you tighten the nut each turn or half turn. Sometimes it may be handy to jam a spacer each side of the wheel to keep it in place as you tighten. The problem you have is that the qr wasn't tight enough before you closed the lever.

Don't tighten it too much that you can close the lever. The lever should go all the way parallel to the frame and not sticking out. If it's sticking out, it's too tight.
No, no no...and no. The frame has vertical dropouts. No shifting at all should be happening. You should definitely not have 'jam a spacer' on each side of the wheel. To set the tension on the q/r skewers tighten the nut end enough that you start feeling the lever tighten up when it's halfway through it's travel. Do NOT close the lever against the frame or fork.
ETA: To complete the proper information a nutted axle wheel should NEVER shift in the dropouts. If it does you're doing it wrong.
cxwrench is offline  
Likes For cxwrench:
Old 09-04-22, 05:00 PM
  #10  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 6,054
Mentioned: 35 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5564 Post(s)
Liked 8,450 Times in 3,652 Posts
Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
No, no no...and no. The frame has vertical dropouts. No shifting at all should be happening. You should definitely not have 'jam a spacer' on each side of the wheel. To set the tension on the q/r skewers tighten the nut end enough that you start feeling the lever tighten up when it's halfway through it's travel. Do NOT close the lever against the frame or fork.
ETA: To complete the proper information a nutted axle wheel should NEVER shift in the dropouts. If it does you're doing it wrong.
Thanks. I was about to post the same thing. If youíre doing it right, the wheel never shifts. Period.
Koyote is offline  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 09-04-22, 05:06 PM
  #11  
hevysrf
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times in 19 Posts



I'm an axle nut , 36 spoke, 50mm rim guy. didn't realize just how little clearance there is between tire and chain stay on these carbon diamond frames.






.
hevysrf is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 05:13 PM
  #12  
Camilo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,766
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 696 Post(s)
Liked 587 Times in 380 Posts
What are those pictures trying to show re: your problem?
Camilo is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 05:20 PM
  #13  
The Chemist
Senior Member
 
The Chemist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Shanghai, China
Posts: 810

Bikes: 2011 Giant FCR3500 // 2008 Dahon Boardwalk

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 303 Times in 152 Posts
Originally Posted by Camilo View Post

But a modern bike with vertical drop outs? i've never had any shifting, ever with external cam QRs. Is it possible?
I use external cam QRs with vertical dropouts, and I agree with this - my rear wheel doesn't shift at all, and never has.
The Chemist is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 05:54 PM
  #14  
Fredo76
The Wheezing Geezer
 
Fredo76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: EspaŮola, NM
Posts: 443

Bikes: 1976 Fredo Speciale, Jamis Citizen 1, Ellis-Briggs FAVORI, Rivendell Clem Smith Jr.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 179 Post(s)
Liked 378 Times in 183 Posts
Those drop-out slots, although vertical, seem oversized, and rounded off on the bottom ends, not really vertical all the way down. Or is the second one the derailleur hanger? I can imagine the wheel moving some - there is slop enough. Having enough clamping force should still work, IF the dropouts themselves can take it.
Fredo76 is offline  
Likes For Fredo76:
Old 09-04-22, 06:31 PM
  #15  
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,157

Bikes: a bunch

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 430 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 349 Posts
Originally Posted by hevysrf View Post



I'm an axle nut , 36 spoke, 50mm rim guy. didn't realize just how little clearance there is between tire and chain stay on these carbon diamond frames.






.
That pic of the NDS dropout seems totally wrong to me. My CF bikes all have a metal 'faceing' (prolly an insert glued to the carbon). Clamping directly to the carbon would be a total no/no for me...
A little more 'crunching and that axle end will be flush with the dropout side...
My guess is there 'was' an 'Insert' to face the dropout properly and take the skewer abuse (which fell off?) , which would account for the excess space in the dropout.
I wouldn't be using a QR with a serrated cap until some metal facing has been put back in place. That QR will eat the remainder of that dropout quickly...
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: And the insert might also sleeve the inside of the Dropout, reducing the excess space and also taking the direct load off the dropout carbon. A good hard thump I can could see that dropout end cracking enough to loose a wheel.

Last edited by cyclezen; 09-04-22 at 06:37 PM.
cyclezen is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 06:37 PM
  #16  
t2p
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: USA
Posts: 910

Bikes: Cannondale - Gary Fisher - Litespeed - Schwinn Paramount - Schwinn (lugged steel) - Trek OCLV

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 351 Times in 233 Posts
can the mods combine this thread with the cracked head tube thread ?

appears to be issues one or both dropouts

might be more than Tulio Campagnolo himself can overcome
t2p is offline  
Old 09-04-22, 06:47 PM
  #17  
cxwrench
Senior Member
 
cxwrench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Nor-Cal
Posts: 3,702

Bikes: lots

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1904 Post(s)
Liked 2,821 Times in 1,444 Posts
Originally Posted by cyclezen View Post
That pic of the NDS dropout seems totally wrong to me. My CF bikes all have a metal 'faceing' (prolly an insert glued to the carbon). Clamping directly to the carbon would be a total no/no for me...
A little more 'crunching and that axle end will be flush with the dropout side...
My guess is there 'was' an 'Insert' to face the dropout properly and take the skewer abuse (which fell off?) , which would account for the excess space in the dropout.
I wouldn't be using a QR with a serrated cap until some metal facing has been put back in place. That QR will eat the remainder of that dropout quickly...
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: And the insert might also sleeve the inside of the Dropout, reducing the excess space and also taking the direct load off the dropout carbon. A good hard thump I can could see that dropout end cracking enough to loose a wheel.
There are tons of bikes and forks w/ 100% carbon dropouts...zero metal. Been like that for years, over 10 at least.
cxwrench is offline  
Likes For cxwrench:
Old 09-04-22, 09:24 PM
  #18  
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,157

Bikes: a bunch

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 430 Post(s)
Liked 503 Times in 349 Posts
Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
There are tons of bikes and forks w/ 100% carbon dropouts...zero metal. Been like that for years, over 10 at least.
maybe so, I don't go around checking dropouts... LOL, but my tarmac definitely has metal face on the NDS dropout...
Doesn't hurt to contact Scott, send them the pics and issue, and see what they come back with... especially the large extra space within the dropout. Are they that forward thinking to allow for a crappy wheel build?
TA droputs are one thing, but where there's a hard clamping effort on the resin face, I wouldn't be so happy. Myself, I will check future QR bikes/frames when/if I look for a buy...
Course it's doubtful that I'd get another rim brake bike, since I already have a boatload that will last to end of days...
Ride On
Yuri
cyclezen is offline  
Likes For cyclezen:
Old 09-05-22, 12:30 AM
  #19  
urbanknight
Over the hill
 
urbanknight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 23,617

Bikes: Giant Defy

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 592 Post(s)
Liked 666 Times in 402 Posts
Those dropouts look like they have been enlarged, either on purpose or from wear (too loose of a skewer). Those marks on the second pic also suggest that the axle is indeed shifting, but it shouldn't be even if the skewer is out. I just took these pics for comparison. Note the tighter clearances.

__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
urbanknight is offline  
Likes For urbanknight:
Old 09-05-22, 07:38 AM
  #20  
alcjphil
Senior Member
 
alcjphil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 5,302
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1532 Post(s)
Liked 1,205 Times in 716 Posts
Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
There are tons of bikes and forks w/ 100% carbon dropouts...zero metal. Been like that for years, over 10 at least.
Yep, I have a 2007 Look 595. Rear dropouts are all carbon
alcjphil is offline  
Old 09-05-22, 08:12 AM
  #21  
_ForceD_
Senior Member on Sr bikes
 
_ForceD_'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Rhode Island
Posts: 1,944

Bikes: Several...from old junk to new all-carbon.

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 847 Post(s)
Liked 544 Times in 297 Posts
In the pics that the OP posted, it almost looks as if the thatís a front axle in those larger rear dropouts. I mean it isnít possible that a rear wheel was mistakenly assembled with a front axle is it?

Dan
_ForceD_ is offline  
Old 09-05-22, 08:15 AM
  #22  
CliffordK
Senior Member
 
CliffordK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,268
Mentioned: 215 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 16718 Post(s)
Liked 3,723 Times in 2,763 Posts
What size of tires are you using?

You might benefit of simply reducing the tire size by one size. Especially if the son is fairly lightweight.

On one bike, I found a benefit of giving the drive side skewer nut a slight tug back before tightening down. Keeping the wheel centered, but just enough to pull the skewer shaft to back of the axle hole.
CliffordK is online now  
Old 09-05-22, 08:28 AM
  #23  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,025

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4321 Post(s)
Liked 1,267 Times in 833 Posts
Could it be the wheel/spoke tension and just being flexy under load? Or the frame itself flexing?
Tried just bending the frame/wheel side to side while off the bike, using body weight and strength?
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-05-22, 08:44 AM
  #24  
t2p
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2022
Location: USA
Posts: 910

Bikes: Cannondale - Gary Fisher - Litespeed - Schwinn Paramount - Schwinn (lugged steel) - Trek OCLV

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 356 Post(s)
Liked 351 Times in 233 Posts
the dropouts are trashed

not uncommon on the Scott CR1 frame carbon dropouts

(google search brings up a number of related threads)
t2p is offline  
Likes For t2p:
Old 09-05-22, 09:02 AM
  #25  
hevysrf
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 48 Post(s)
Liked 40 Times in 19 Posts
23mm tires, spokes tensioned and wheels true, cones adusted .
Dropouts do seem to have more clearance than I would expect.
I'm not sure this happens constantly. Skewers may just have been improperly adjusted.
hevysrf is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.