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Campagnolo Record with a long cage?

Old 09-25-22, 08:10 AM
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Campagnolo Record with a long cage?

Hello,

I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.

I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?

or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?

I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…

thanks!
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Old 09-25-22, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
Hello,

I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.

I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?

or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?

I have a huret jubilee as a back up plan, but its bit too new…

thanks!
...1966 is pretty early to be talking about what we today consider a long cage rear derailleur. I do not know it the aftermarket cage will work on an old Record derailleur. I've never tried to do that. Your best bet to research this would be either to read the appropriate chapter in Frank Berto's book, "The Dancing Chain", or to go over to Disraeli Gears and look through the rear derailleurs there using the by decade search tool.
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Old 09-25-22, 09:08 AM
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I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that the long Shimano Crane cage is compatible with older generation Record.
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Old 09-25-22, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
Hello,
I’m converting a racing bike from 66 to a 650b randonneur. It has fully campagnolo parts and I was thinking that it would be nice to keep it as far as possible like that.
I know that campagnolo nuovo record can be converted in to a longcage with a cage from rally. But would the same cage work on earlier record derailleur?
or are there some other longcage derailleurs from 66 or earlier?
You haven't disclosed exactly which model you're talking about; that might help you find an answer. Picture(s) too. A few years ago, BF member Henry III was making water-jet cut Rally-type cage plates from 1/8" aluminum for people on an asked-for basis, to fit either Nuovo or Super Record short-cage derailleurs. I have a pair, that I'd be willing to copy, if you want to get a local shop to make you some. Don't know if they'd fit a Gran Sport or other early Campy derailleur.
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Old 09-25-22, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
campagnolo nuovo record can be converted with a cage from rally.
Or Soma for $43.

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/som...2790#attr=3684
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Old 09-25-22, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
You haven't disclosed exactly which model you're talking about; that might help you find an answer. Picture(s) too. A few years ago, BF member Henry III was making water-jet cut Rally-type cage plates from 1/8" aluminum for people on an asked-for basis, to fit either Nuovo or Super Record short-cage derailleurs. I have a pair, that I'd be willing to copy, if you want to get a local shop to make you some. Don't know if they'd fit a Gran Sport or other early Campy derailleur.

Hello, sorry I thought I was clear on what model I ment. The derailleur the bike has is the first record derailleur before nuovo or the super. This diy cage you are talking about sounds amazing though. As a copy do you mean you could send me the dimensions for it?


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Old 09-25-22, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that the long Shimano Crane cage is compatible with older generation Record.
this sounds great, I will look into this. Thanks!
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Old 09-25-22, 10:02 AM
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I found a post that has all the right answer. Seems that the same aftermarket cage that works for nuovo record, doesn’t fit the record. But the shimano seems to work!

Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
Not what you asked, but a Fun Fact: A Crane cage (short or GS) bolts right onto a Campy Record, the older steel and bronze one (early '60s) that preceded the NR.

If you need a wider gear range than a Record can wrap, and you refuse to put a proper touring derailer on your old racing bike for sentimental reasons, the GS cage can make that happen. It's not going to fool anyone, but you can plausibly claim it was done back in '72 or whenever, to salvage a little vintage cred.

I sorta lied about "bolts right on", there is a tiny little blip of aluminum you must remove from the GS cage, but it takes 5 seconds with a Dremel and it doesn't prevent it from working on the Crane mech if you switch it back (non-destructive)

  • Don't remove the entire raised bump if you want to be able to put it back on the Crane. Try mounting the Record spring cap to the cage and you'll see where you need to remove a little aluminum. It's a small portion of the entire raised bump. so the bump still works as intended on a Crane.
  • Tapping threads for the "pawn" bolt is optional. That bolt isn't touched at all while riding, it's just for making wheel changes a little easier. It does the same thing that the raised bump does, when on a Crane, keeping the cage from over-rotating while the wheel is off.
The fact that the GS cage already has a hole right there where the pawn bolt needs to go, the right diameter to take a M5 thread, and not used for anything else, makes me think maybe they actually intended this cage to work on a Record mech. Crazy, but why else is that hole there?

Even putting the short Crane cage on a Record improves it's shifting and range a little, and saves some weight (the Record cage is steel). But I'd only do it if my Record cage was mucked up somehow. Otherwise, keeping it original trumps the tiny advantages of the "upgrade".

Note, a NR or Rally cage will not bolt onto a Record, their attachment is different. Similarly the Crane cage will not bolt onto a NR. If you have a NR then the long cage to get is the Rally, or the modern repro of it, sold by Soma.

Mark B

now I just have to find a crane for the cage…

Last edited by ToniH.; 09-25-22 at 10:09 AM.
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Old 09-25-22, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
Hello, sorry I thought I was clear on what model I me{a}nt.
Wasn't clear to me.
Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
As a copy do you mean you could send me the dimensions for it?
I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.

Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
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Old 09-25-22, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
I found a post that has all the right answer. Seems that the same aftermarket cage that works for nuovo record, doesn’t fit the record. But the shimano seems to work!
now I just have to find a crane for the cage…
The elusive Model WTF rear derailleur from Campagnolo.

That's pretty cool.
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Old 09-25-22, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Wahl View Post
Wasn't clear to me.

I could scan them, verify critical dimensions (thickness, hole sizes and distances between them) with a dial caliper, draw them up in CAD, and send you a DXF or PDF vector file (either is a format that most fabricators can use). 1/8" plate is easy enough to find, I don't remember if Henry III was using a particular alloy, but whatever it was might be available from McMaster-Carr. I trawled through both threads linked-to below without ever seeing alloy info, nor thickness. Henry III was working in both aluminum and stainless steel plate. I know the plates I got are aluminum, but I'm not sure of the thickess without getting them out of my stash. If I were to try this out, I'd source some harder aluminum alloy than 6061, but that's just a seat-of-the-pants recommendation.

Here are a couple BF threads on this topic
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...started-1.html -- the original by Henry III (who hasn't posted on BF since December 2020), and you might want to look at the post #50 on page 2, concerning possible limitations and #57 (threading of pivot bolt on a NR) & #58 (pulley bolt considerations), #87, #91
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...lly-cages.html -- a follow-up by mkeller234 about implementation. You might want to look at post #7 and following ones about the quality of shifting of Campy derailleurs with longer cages -- I'm no expert.
Thats really cool. Thanks for offering! For this project I think I will go with the crane cage and the record derailleur, but henry III cage seems like something I could get into at some point.
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Old 09-25-22, 01:37 PM
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There were factory long cage mechs available in the 80s. Not as elegant as Campy’s high end equipment but pretty well made.
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Old 09-25-22, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
I'm not sure, but I thought I heard that the long Shimano Crane cage is compatible with older generation Record.
I recall reading that a Titleist cage will fit on a a Crane, so that would be a reasonable assumption to also work with the older Campagnolo Derailleur.
I have a couple Shimano 500gs long cage derailleurs, and wonder if they are also compatible.

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Old 09-25-22, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
Thats really cool. Thanks for offering! For this project I think I will go with the crane cage and the record derailleur, but henry III cage seems like something I could get into at some point.
Just offering my opinion it would be a shame to breakup a Shimano Crane Derailleur especially a GS version. They are a better made, better shifting and more rare than the Campagnolo one you want to modify. People who are assembling 1st generation Dura Ace groups are always on the lookout for nice Crane derailleurs.
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Old 09-25-22, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
I found a post that has all the right answer. Seems that the same aftermarket cage that works for nuovo record, doesn’t fit the record. But the shimano seems to work!




now I just have to find a crane for the cage…
...Shimano made a couple of long cage versions that were contemporary with Crane GS, both Titlist GS and Tourney GS. The Titlist was cheaper, had less attention to finish, and can usually be found (on E-bay at least) selling for less money. Crane long cage has gotten pretty pricey for using as a parts derailleur. The cages look similar, but I've never taken one off. They all work about the same on the bicycles I've had them on.
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Old 09-25-22, 04:24 PM
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@ToniH.

There are a lot of workarounds here, many far more functional than hacking the original.

I would not butcher that original Record, crappy though they may be, you don't really ever want to have to look for a good one if you need it.
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Old 09-25-22, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
I found a post that has all the right answer. Seems that the same aftermarket cage that works for nuovo record, doesn’t fit the record. But the shimano seems to work! now I just have to find a crane for the cage…
FWIW, the Shimano Titlist GS is identical to the Crane GS, except with a steel pulley cage instead of aluminum. And the Schwinn GT300 LeTour was a re-badged Crane GS. So a cage from either of those ought to work as well.
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Old 09-25-22, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac View Post
I would not butcher that original Record, crappy though they may be, you don't really ever want to have to look for a good one if you need it.
The nice thing about the proposed Shimano cage swap is that it does not involve modifying the original Record derailleur, just some slight modifications to the Shimano cage. Keep the original Record pulley cage, and restoring the derailleur to its original state is just a cage-swap away.
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Old 09-25-22, 05:38 PM
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FWIW, there's an overpriced Campagnolo Euclid on the Sacramento craigslist, in bike parts. No affiliation, just thought someone might feel like negotiating. 🙂
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Old 09-25-22, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
I found a post that has all the right answer.
Sharp-eyed viewers may have noticed that the mech in the pic ToniH. posted is shifting to a 34t freewheel. Don't expect to get that range from your Record just by putting a GS cage on it. Though it might work, the one in the pic has been hybridized. The upper knuckle is a from a "Sport" (not Gran Sport), the single-pulley mech intended for 3-speed city bikes. That upper knuckle has a spring, so grafting (riveting) it onto the Record parallelogram arms makes a double-spring shifter, equivalent to the Simplex of that era. Vastly increases the range, even with the original Record pulley cage. I fact for the bike that's on, I went back to the Record cage, even though I'm using a wide-range triple in front (20t difference) and a 14-30 freewheel. The short cage has enough wrap to reach all 15 gears.

Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:




I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.

Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.

FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.



Mark B

Last edited by bulgie; 09-25-22 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 09-26-22, 04:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
Sharp-eyed viewers may have noticed that the mech in the pic ToniH. posted is shifting to a 34t freewheel. Don't expect to get that range from your Record just by putting a GS cage on it. Though it might work, the one in the pic has been hybridized. The upper knuckle is a from a "Sport" (not Gran Sport), the single-pulley mech intended for 3-speed city bikes. That upper knuckle has a spring, so grafting (riveting) it onto the Record parallelogram arms makes a double-spring shifter, equivalent to the Simplex of that era. Vastly increases the range, even with the original Record pulley cage. I fact for the bike that's on, I went back to the Record cage, even though I'm using a wide-range triple in front (20t difference) and a 14-30 freewheel. The short cage has enough wrap to reach all 15 gears.

Here are pics of it handling the extremes, big-big and small-small:




I don't know what size freewheel you can get with the non-hybridized Record by swapping the cage to GS. Probably a little bigger than with the stock cage, but the main advantage will be letting you use a wider range of chainrings. The Record was intended for a narrow range up front, typically only 3 or 4 teeth, the half-step you get with a racing size freewheel of that era. The GS cage will allow you to use a triple or wide-range double.

Note I do not recommend chopping up Records and Sports and Frankensteining them together. This was a "fun" exercise in some ways, but also a total PITA. And just about any touring mech will work better with much less cursing and excess stomach acid. Oh and for the record (no pun intended), both the "organ donors" were dead. The Record had a broken top knuckle, and the Sport had a twisted cage, so no working mechs were sacrificed.

FYI I also have a hybridized Gran Sport, the earlier bronze-steel version. The Sport upper knuckle fits those too.



Mark B
Thanks for your insight and everybody elses! This forum is great. I guess the main reason for the cage swap for me is to be able to use a wide double in front. I placed an order for a le tour gt 300. Lets see how this goes.

I know this whole thing does not make any sense. And there would be cheaper, better working and overall more sane options for derailleur. But for me big part of the hobby is trying some weird things like this. Its fun, and somehow I like the idea to keep the original derailleursystem as close to how it was originally.
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Old 09-26-22, 11:20 AM
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Why not just put a Campagnolo Rallye

on there?
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Old 09-26-22, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by ToniH. View Post
Hello, sorry I thought I was clear on what model I ment. The derailleur the bike has is the first record derailleur before nuovo or the super. This diy cage you are talking about sounds amazing though. As a copy do you mean you could send me the dimensions for it?


That inner cage plate is mounted upside down!
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Old 09-26-22, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 531 View Post
Why not just put a Campagnolo Rallye

on there?
That outer parallelogram arm is bent!
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Old 09-26-22, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 531 View Post
Why not just put a Campagnolo Rally on there?
Have you priced them?
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