carleton

That's a good point. Apparently Bos was in the lane a split second before Hoy.

WhatsYoCadence

This thread will help me so much. Thank you Carleton!

taras0000

Shallower tracks have a higher penalty than steeper tracks. The more vertical the banks, the closer the circumfrences are between any two points on the track. Think the wall of death versus flat running track.

MarkWW

So, hypothetically, what would be the correct strategy here? My gut instinct is if you can out-kilo me, then going long doesn't make sense, so my best bet would be to try to pin you for as long as possible, then try to out jump you, which doesn't seem to be the right idea.

Quinn8it

The longer you pin me- the more prepared for your jump i am going to be. If we are inside 1.5laps to go you are not going to catch me sleeping.

Honestly- at a race like Masters Nationals, where there can be a fairly big range in qualifying times, and you can be up against much slower guys in the early rounds- its critical to stay focused on when your opponent makes his move. I ride a small gear that lets me easily cover the acceleration, knowing that getting jumped is my biggest weakness in that situation..

carleton

Yes, no. Sort of.

Assuming you guys are relatively evenly matched, you don't want to take a guy who has trained for the kilo "long". He'll just use you as a rabbit and chase you for 2.5 laps and come around for the win as you start slowing down.

Taking him short won't really work either. Kilo guys are particularly hard to beat in sprints because they train their standing start and top end equally. To a Kilo rider, a 750M all-out sprint is nothing...it's fun

You'll really want to win by capitalizing on a mistake or forcing a mistake. Basically out-thinking him and hoping he doesn't catch you.

When Chris Hoy had his rise to the top, he was training for the Kilo. This is also what made him a top Kerin guy. He could win front the front...like this:


Simply an amazing feat of athleticism.

Hoy was criticized early in his pro career for not having very good sprint tactics. When he learned those, he was unbeatable winning 3 of 4 sprint events at the Olympics (Keirin, Match Sprints, and Team Sprint with teammates Jason Kenny and Jamie Staff). Kilo was not in the 2008 Olympic program.



He won the gold in the kilo in the 2004 Olympics.

Brian Ratliff

The issue is on either track, the difference in your radius when you are going around the outside is roughly the same. But on a tight track, the difference in radius is a larger percentage of the total (you aren't going to be passing quite so tight on a tighter track), so by percentage, you are taking a longer route on a tighter track.

slindell

I think it is more of a question of how many turns and how steep. Your added distance is pi*cos(bank) * distance from black * laps. Besides tending to drift more on a tight track you are doing more laps.

Brian Ratliff

I'm starting to think the angle of the track doesn't matter distance wise. On a steep track, you still have to climb up the elevation to pass and then descend on the turn exit, both of which add distance, which means the distance your wheels travel is probably close to equal regardless of track banking.

You are right though about the extra distance being the same regardless of radius; I didn't think that through properly. I think it is simply harder to make a tight pass on a steep track due to the g-forces and the angles. There is also the effect of "stalling" when you are climbing on the entrance of the corner and accelerating on the exit which makes the timing of a pass more difficult - you have to be patient as your pass stalls on the entry of the turn and, on Alpenrose at least, realize that if you are roughly even with the guy's BB in the middle of the turn you'll pass on the exit.

The part about having more turns is relevant on some tracks. On a long track such as a 333 or 400, you'll really only be racing on one corner. On a tighter track such as a 250m, you'll effectively be racing through two corners; on a 200m track or shorter you might be racing 3 or 4 corners. On one corner, passing at 1m distance (for simplicity), you'll add ~6' to your race. So, if you race one corner, you are going an extra 6'; if you race through two corners, you are going an extra 12'. This would be why holding your opponent on your hip is important; if you can force the opponent to race around the outside of 2 corners, you force him to ride an extra 10-12'.

Suffice it to say it seems easier to race from the front on a tight track, for a variety of reasons.

carleton

As a big guy, for me climbing steep turns burns glycogen. Even though I get a boost going downhill, I still have lost that glycogen and it won't be available for the sprint.

Quinn8it

there won't be a sprint if you don't go up track to get around me!

carleton

Yeah, pretty much

Quinn8it

When Carleton and I come up against each other in the rounds at Rock Hill this summer, I'm going to try to play out 2 tactics, based on what little I know about him from the forums.

i know that C has insane power, he has a beastly jump. I also know that he employs a lower volume "single effort at max output" training program.
I on the other hand use interval based training, and I focus on the Kilo. So presumably I've got better long game and better "in race recovery"

the point is that I have identified what I think is C's biggest strength and a potential weakness- and chosen a plan than uses my strengths.

tactic 1 is to jump really hard way out- coming out of turn-4 with over 500m to go. I want C to know this means business, but I'll leave the lane open for him to take control. Hopefully he will. Now I settle in to his sizable draft and use my ability to recover and the fact that he is tiring to make a very late jump.

Tactic 2 is a variation on 1. If C doesn't take the bait, and say stays above me, I will keep on the gas and hold him high before taking the lane myself. Presumably he covers my move and is now sitting pretty in my draft. I start to change speeds. Slow down to push him to make his move, speed up to hold him at my hip.. Short hard kicks will wear him down before the main event in the last 75m..

^^^^^^ maybe

carleton

YUP!

Actually, I'm a decent 500m rider At DLV, only Steve Hill has gone faster...ever. If you lead out long, I'll have a chance at winning because I love chasing rabbits . If I lead out, there's a 2/3 chance I'll fade. My only chance is to jump so hard that you don't have chance to get into my slipstream.

Double-kicks kill me. Period. Dan Holt did this to me and slayed me.

There's another trick that will slay me, too. Can anybody guess what it is?

Quinn8it

Yes- I know all that-
That's why in Tactic 1 I am hoping to bait you into taking the lead early- so I can chase you
since I initiated the attack- we are both at speed, limiting the effectiveness of your jump

queerpunk

starts with a k and ends with an ilo?

carleton

We should all strive to be this comfortable on the bike and track:

carleton

Not exactly.

The term "Kilo-ing" came from the days when standard tracks were 333m and Match Sprints were 3 laps on them. So 3x333m = Kilo.

These days, match sprints are generally 3x250 = 750M or 2x333 = 667M. I can generally hang after being kilo-ed because it's essentially a standing 667 or 750M race and I'm better than most at those. So, I'd have a chance.

There is a tactic called "The Razor" which is deadly when done right. One of the only times Joe Marshall beat me at DLV was with a seated Razor.

A Razor is when you gradually (and deceptively) accelerate away from your opponent. If he/she is not paying attention, they will miss the opportunity to use their explosive power and kinda be in this no-mans-land of cadence where they can't lay down major torque.

Here is Hoy doing it in a Keirn, but you can do the same in a match sprint.

queerpunk

That's such a good visual example of it - at 10 seconds, Hoy jumps to hold the front and keep a surge behind him. By 15sec, everybody starts settling in and waiting for the next thing, but by 17sec, he's got a slight gap. At 23 sec you can see him look under his arm at the gap, and decide to pour it on.

I also see the term 'razor' applied to really steadily and consistently ramping up the speed, tricking the rider or riders behind you into jumping to try to come around you but holding them off by continuing to accelerate. In that case it gets combined with keeping someone on your hip (and beating them to the corner - two things talked about in this thread).

I mean it's basically doing the same thing with your legs and your riding, but having a slightly different effect on the people behind you.

There's something really beautiful about a well-executed razor. It requires amazing situational awareness; amazing power and speed endurance; and such refined precision.

Most beautiful and difficult tactic ever?

carleton

Yeah, it's really hard to do right. It's part luck because you have to count on your opponent missing the disguised jump. His standing jump can beat your seated slow jump...if he sees it.

I suspect that there is a certain particular cadence where you catch your opponent "flat footed" and can get away with it. I don't do it enough (nor has it been done on me enough) for me to have nailed it down.

Baby Puke

"Sizable draft". Yes it is.

carleton

You talkin' bout my butt, brah? :-|


That's actually what makes me a great Man 1!

Baby Puke

Yes, yes I am.

And for sure bigger is better when it comes to track sprinting!

sgtdirt

here is the track i will be at come spring. any advise on tactics? btw, great thread!

taras0000

Check out that Stayer's line. That track has TWO blue bands.