Go Back  Bike Forums > The Racer's Forum > Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area
Reload this Page >

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Notices
Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Ask your small, random, track-related questions here

Old 07-08-16, 04:50 PM
  #3651  
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,163
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
Sorry, no experience with it. On the BT with the Scatto's I have the PCV under the saddle (recently bought the aluminium one made by Mike Zagorski as my old under saddle mount was off centre on one rail). On my training bike I have the PCV up front, but can use the standard mount on these as they are Easton EC90 bars.
Dalai is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 11:35 AM
  #3652  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
That looks like a great solution. I would try it for $37 + shipping.

They even help you determine which stems may work and which may not.



The craziest thing is that you'd think SRM would make an array of mounts like this. The hard part is making the cranks and head units. Making bar, stem, or seatmount clamps should be easy.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 06:47 PM
  #3653  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Dalai
Please remove your sprint coloured glasses for a second... Aero is very important! Why do you think we use double discs for the pursuit? Rear disc all the time... Sprint races are often won by 0.1 of a second.

The Planet X frame geometry is fine.

Where you you get the Planet X frames are too flexy? Especially since we don't know the weight or race preference of the person asking. I have both a Planet X Track frame which you say is flexy and an overweight and over engineered BT Stealth and personally can't notice a difference.
I apologize for saying spmething in one direction.
Also I was just referring to Carleton words about planet X stiffness.
I was just trying to say Planet X is not stiff like other popular track frame.

I'm really sorry about saying something with my short knowledge.

Thanks for telling me good information
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 09:04 PM
  #3654  
Dalai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,163
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 89 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 6 Posts
It's all good gycho77. Just have to remember that nearly anything will flex under Carleton!
Dalai is offline  
Old 07-10-16, 09:23 PM
  #3655  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Originally Posted by Dalai
It's all good gycho77. Just have to remember that nearly anything will flex under Carleton!
Including my desk chair
carleton is offline  
Old 07-11-16, 12:41 PM
  #3656  
taras0000
Lapped 3x
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,723
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 20 Posts
Maybe commission BT to make you one?
taras0000 is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 05:10 AM
  #3657  
MrMinty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wrexham, UK
Posts: 90

Bikes: Cannondale Caad8, Claud Butler Roubaix, Raleigh Equipe

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ordered a new chain and didn't realise it was a narrow chain (still a 1/8th though)

Is there any benefit to a narrow chain? I guess there will be less lateral movement and a better power transfer?
MrMinty is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 10:21 PM
  #3658  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Originally Posted by MrMinty
Ordered a new chain and didn't realise it was a narrow chain (still a 1/8th though)

Is there any benefit to a narrow chain? I guess there will be less lateral movement and a better power transfer?

Who makes this narrow chain?


What dimension is reduced to make it narrow?


Having never heard of a narrow 1/8" chain I'm curious.
700wheel is offline  
Old 07-12-16, 11:43 PM
  #3659  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
I think Minty is confusing measurements.

Minty, what is the make/model of the chain you have?
carleton is offline  
Old 07-13-16, 08:13 AM
  #3660  
MrMinty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Wrexham, UK
Posts: 90

Bikes: Cannondale Caad8, Claud Butler Roubaix, Raleigh Equipe

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton
I think Minty is confusing measurements.

Minty, what is the make/model of the chain you have?
It's this one although it doesn't state on the descripition that its narrow. Bought as a spare, so its not been fitted yet
MrMinty is offline  
Old 07-13-16, 06:26 PM
  #3661  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Originally Posted by MrMinty
It's this one although it doesn't state on the descripition that its narrow. Bought as a spare, so its not been fitted yet
Where is the word "narrow" coming from? Did someone tell you that it was a narrow chain?

Chainrings and cogs come in 2 widths. The road standards is 3/32". The thicker track standards is 1/8" (or 4/32" which is 1/32" wider). This is why the track chainrings are called "wide".

"Narrow": 3/32" chainrings, cogs, chains
"Wide": 1/8" (4/32") chainrings, cogs, chains


Over-explaining a simple thing:

Chains have narrow tolerances. A chain designed to fit on a 3/32" chainring and cog has openings just wide enough to fit over the 3/32" wide teeth. If you tried to place such a chain on a 1/8" chainring, it would not fit down on it. Looks like this:



So, if you use a 1/8" chainring or cog, then you need a 1/8" (aka: "wide") chain to mate with it so it fits appropriately.

Now, with that in mind, a wider 1/8" chain CAN fit over a 3/32" chainring or cog. But, as you might guess, there will be 1/32" of lateral play in the system. But, that's not noticeable at all.

The "Track Standard" for all drive train components is 1/8". However, you can find stuff in 3/32" format. Usually weight weenies go for this option as the weight savings are not insignificant. Note that if you do adopt a 3/32" system, you won't be able to borrow chainrings or cogs in a pinch because most people use 1/8" at the track and your 3/32" chain won't fit.

The general advice: If you don't have a really good reason to go 3/32", just go 1/8" for everything. It will make your life easier.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-15-16, 10:44 AM
  #3662  
Flatballer
No matches
 
Flatballer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 11,647

Bikes: two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1398 Post(s)
Liked 444 Times in 250 Posts
Is anyone here track only? Do you even know your FTP, as in have actually tested it? I'm guessing for sprinters you don't even bother testing it or worrying about it because your workouts are all shorter than that and events are all anaerobic?

Just a random thought I had while testing (attempting to, I blew up) my FTP last night.
Flatballer is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 03:01 AM
  #3663  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Hello guys.
I might get a sponsor from a frame builder in Korea.
The owner wanted to try something new and willing to sponsor me or SCI-Arc team.
However, he wanted to know what kind of geometry I want.
Also he want me to decide, if I want to make the frame super stiff(it makes the frame brittle) or has little flex on the frame.

So this is my plan(I will be racing in 250m with 45degree banking velodrome)
-74degree heattube and seattube
-120mm seattube or shorter(seattube 50 or 49)
-long~~~ dropout like bt(I might use Stolen style dropout)
-28mm or 30mm fork rake
-50mm bb drop

Problem with my current frame(reference)
-headtube is too long for me
-dropout is not long enough for me

My current frame geometry
-st(c-c) 51.5
-tt 52
-fork rake 30mm
- BB drop 50mm
-HT and ST angle 74 degree(not 100 percent sure)

I think this geometry would not fit my body(alot of njs frame has 72.5 or 73 headtube degree and my body is similar to Japanese)
So can anyone recommend me a geometry. I tried to reference Don Walker frame geometry, but it's based on 55cm
Also give me concept of the frame.
The frame builder want to make an unique frame.
So he is willing to make the frame like the new FES track frame, Look L96, or BT

Just tell me your custom frame idea and I will combine them all together and ask the frame builder

My main focus is Match Sprint

Thank you for all your help
Please do not hate me for asking stupid question.
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 11:08 AM
  #3664  
700wheel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 645
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 11 Posts
gycho77,
If you do not know what geometry you need then you should not be looking for a custom frame.
700wheel is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 01:40 PM
  #3665  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Does the builder have experience building track racing bikes? If your frame builder is good, he should do the fit for you.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 01:49 PM
  #3666  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
The framebuildee has a lot of experience in building track frames, but for some reason he want to choose the geometry.

700wheel
Also I am thinking of 74 degree, but I want to check if it will fit my body or not.
I might just go with 74degree, 28mm, 45mm BB drop.
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 02:13 PM
  #3667  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Carleton
The framebuilder has a lot of experience in building track frames, but for some reason he want to choose the geometry. Also he was a Keirin racer when he was young.

700wheel
Also I am thinking of 74 degree, but I want to check if it will fit my body or not.
I might just go with 74degree, 28mm, 45mm BB drop.

Thank you for all your helps and I think I know what I should do know.
I will just adjust the BB drop a little and talk to the frame builder more.
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 05:59 PM
  #3668  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Go with the geometry from the LOOK L96 Speed: Look Cycle - L96 Speed - Frames - Track

Being that you are a shorter rider. This means that your top tube will be short. Short top tube means that your front wheel will be closer to your toes. Notice that their Small and Medium bikes use a 34mm fork offset and their Extra Extra Small and Extra Small bikes use a longer 43mm fork offset. This is because those smaller frame are so small that your foot would rub the tire with a 34mm offset.

So, since you are thinking of a 51cm top tube, I would look at the Extra Small L96 Speed geometry.

Last edited by carleton; 07-16-16 at 06:06 PM.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 06:50 PM
  #3669  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton
Go with the geometry from the LOOK L96 Speed: Look Cycle - L96 Speed - Frames - Track

Being that you are a shorter rider. This means that your top tube will be short. Short top tube means that your front wheel will be closer to your toes. Notice that their Small and Medium bikes use a 34mm fork offset and their Extra Extra Small and Extra Small bikes use a longer 43mm fork offset. This is because those smaller frame are so small that your foot would rub the tire with a 34mm offset.

So, since you are thinking of a 51cm top tube, I would look at the Extra Small L96 Speed geometry.
Thank you for your help.
I thought you hated L96 geometry, but I could try l96 geometry.
And can you please tell me why my toe touching the front tire is bad.
My current bike also has that problem, but I never fell down or crashed because of this problem.
Also when I am riding my toe never touches the front tire

my current frame has 52cm toptube, 74degree headtube, and 30mm fork rake
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 09:17 PM
  #3670  
Hrothgar42
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 44
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
If you're actually doing match sprints, then toe overlap matters. Excerpt from a very interesting BikeRumor interview with Don Walker:

BIKERUMOR: What’s their event?

DON: Yeah, are they a sprinter? [...] You want a little more front-center because if you’re playing cat and mouse with another sprinter and they know that you’re on a really tight bike, say they’ve got enough front-center, they can get you just in the position they want and dive down the track and you’re going to have to go a quarter to half a pedal stroke around to get your front wheel so that you can turn and go down track. [...]
Hrothgar42 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 09:56 PM
  #3671  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by Hrothgar42
If you're actually doing match sprints, then toe overlap matters. Excerpt from a very interesting BikeRumor interview with Don Walker:

BIKERUMOR: What’s their event?

DON: Yeah, are they a sprinter? [...] You want a little more front-center because if you’re playing cat and mouse with another sprinter and they know that you’re on a really tight bike, say they’ve got enough front-center, they can get you just in the position they want and dive down the track and you’re going to have to go a quarter to half a pedal stroke around to get your front wheel so that you can turn and go down track. [...]
Thank you so much.
This article helped me a lot.
My local velodrome(I'm moving LA, so I will racing in match sprint) had no match sprint race for amateur.
So I just trained on power, cadence, and other.
I had no idea how the geometry works for match sprint.
Thank you again for your help.

I think I will just go with Look L96 geometry
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 10:20 PM
  #3672  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Originally Posted by gycho77
Thank you for your help.
I thought you hated L96 geometry, but I could try l96 geometry.
And can you please tell me why my toe touching the front tire is bad.
My current bike also has that problem, but I never fell down or crashed because of this problem.
Also when I am riding my toe never touches the front tire

my current frame has 52cm toptube, 74degree headtube, and 30mm fork rake
I think the 496/L96 geometry is good. 34mm offset fork is good. 40 is where I start whining

My only real complaint about LOOK is that they stop at size Medium with a 56cm top tube. Anchor/Bridgestone does the same thing.

The only reason I can guess that LOOK does not make any larger sizes is because they somehow fail testing. They are simply "leaving money on the table" by not offering them. It's not a matter of "we don't want to make them if they won't sell" because each frame is made when the order is placed and money is paid.

If they offered 58, 60, and 62 TT options, they would sell probably twice as many frames.

Think about it. How many Extra Extra Small (49.5cm) frames would they sell vs Large (58cm)?? There are many, many times more 58cm riders than there are 49.5cm riders.

The only logical reason is that the design doesn't hold up at that size or larger.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 10:34 PM
  #3673  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton
I think the 496/L96 geometry is good. 34mm offset fork is good. 40 is where I start whining

My only real complaint about LOOK is that they stop at size Medium with a 56cm top tube. Anchor/Bridgestone does the same thing.

The only reason I can guess that LOOK does not make any larger sizes is because they somehow fail testing. They are simply "leaving money on the table" by not offering them. It's not a matter of "we don't want to make them if they won't sell" because each frame is made when the order is placed and money is paid.

If they offered 58, 60, and 62 TT options, they would sell probably twice as many frames.

Think about it. How many Extra Extra Small (49.5cm) frames would they sell vs Large (58cm)?? There are many, many times more 58cm riders than there are 49.5cm riders.

The only logical reason is that the design doesn't hold up at that size or larger.
Oh!!! I see what you are saying now.
So I tried Anchor, but my toe is still rubbing the front tire.
Do you think L96 XS geometry will solve this problem?
Or should I make the toptube longer and use short stem
gycho77 is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 10:49 PM
  #3674  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,965
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1386 Post(s)
Liked 92 Times in 77 Posts
Originally Posted by gycho77
Oh!!! I see what you are saying now.
So I tried Anchor, but my toe is still rubbing the front tire.
Now you see

Now imagine doing a trackstand on a 20 degree straight away and being afraid of touching your toe. Or simply riding slow in general.

Originally Posted by gycho77
Or should I make the toptube longer and use short stem
No. This is a BAD idea. This will adversely affect your handling when your hands are far behind your front axle. Hands should be roughly above your front axle.


Originally Posted by gycho77
Do you think L96 XS geometry will solve this problem?
This problem is the reason why the XXS and XS frames have 43mm (road) forks...to address this issue.

It's hard for me to say what geometry is best for you. If you were looking for some known geometries that work, look at LOOK.

I would talk this over with your builder and see what his thoughts are.

One easy way to see if that geo will fit you is to take those numbers and plug them into a fit bike and then you sit on the fit bike and see how it feels.
carleton is offline  
Old 07-16-16, 11:16 PM
  #3675  
gycho77
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Delaware, USA
Posts: 607

Bikes: Serotta steel track bike, Specialized MTB

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 99 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton
Now you see

Now imagine doing a trackstand on a 20 degree straight away and being afraid of touching your toe. Or simply riding slow in general.



No. This is a BAD idea. This will adversely affect your handling when your hands are far behind your front axle. Hands should be roughly above your front axle.




This problem is the reason why the XXS and XS frames have 43mm (road) forks...to address this issue.

It's hard for me to say what geometry is best for you. If you were looking for some known geometries that work, look at LOOK.

I would talk this over with your builder and see what his thoughts are.

One easy way to see if that geo will fit you is to take those numbers and plug them into a fit bike and then you sit on the fit bike and see how it feels.

Thank you so much!
I should visit his shop few more times and decide what geometry wil fit my body.
And I will use AutoCAD to find my fork rake and heattube angle.

I have two more questions.
1) If I had one choice what should I choose.
74 degree ht with road fork vs. 72degree with 30mm(or 35) fork rake
2) Do I want the frame to be super stiff(it makes the frame brittle) or do I want little flex on the BB

I think I will be using this frame for next 10 years. So I want to make the frame perfect or close to perfect
gycho77 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.