Psimet2001 

You know I'm a roadie, right? I stand by what I said - width was overhyped from the beginning of the change to 23mm rims. There's an effect for sure. The efficacy of that effect is arguable in the vast majority of applications.

jfranci3

What? rolling resistance / handling wise - yeah wheel width doesn't matter much, especially past 25c/80psi road tubeless. Soft-roading / Off-roading... it can depend. For CX, I'd imagine if the rules limit you to a 33c tire, you can run a wider wheel to net you some "free" tire width.

Aero-wise - I don't agree. It might be close if you're talking about a perfect fit vs a very good tire fit looking at tests, but if you've got the wrong tire fit it matters. Pushing yourself into a smaller tire means you've got higher pressures, which won't roll as well and have more rider fatigue. f you're thinking just run the 21/22/23c tire on the non-wide width-doesn't-matter 2009 era wheel @ 100-115psi, that's fine if you're living with Naples, FL perfect pavement, but most other places the are going to benefit with the wider 25c/28c tire @80-90psi, which would wipe away the aero benefit of the wheel. The tire-pressure benefit is larger and more universal than the out-front-only aero benefit.

You're right, 2009 for Zipp is a choice cutoff point (2018 for Mavic??? ;-) ) as they were early to go with wider rims. Going wider will give you a lot more room to contour the rim profile to guide the air, make the wheel a lot less twitchy in gusty winds (less sharp breakaway, less resistance change when it does), lets the wheel work as a sail a lot larger range of wind yaw, and lets you run a much wider tire (and thus match the tire pressure to the pavement conditions).

Given current wheel price points, data we've got now, used 'aero' prices / performance, and current-new entry-level wheel performance, I don't see BUYING 2009 level aero as worth it unless you're dealing with a narrow TT bike or something. Rock it if you've got it though (or you like the look....or your buddy gives you the 'loaner'-not-really-a-loan deal).


From Silca's blog, let's pretend this is 100% true :-) Once you get .5mm too wide for the wheel you're running, the aero performance just falls off and is less accepting of turbulent winds. Narrower is still better when you can use it, but too wide doesn't work here. I've seen this same thing in other tests, but this was the easiest and clearest pic I found.

On the tire /pressure side - (lets assume 21-23c @100psi -120psi ; 25/28c @ 80-90psi). Green line is Naples Fl; Yellow is everywhere else; and red is common non-slip sidewalk/concrete road brick road.

noodle soup

Yes I know you were a road racer at one time, but I'm sure you weren't road riding on 32-34 mm clincher C-X tires at 30psi

Psimet2001 

Correct...I wasn't saying to ride 32-34 at 30 on the road. I was saying we ran that for cross with cornering forces way higher than anything we ever see on the road and didn't have flop or even squirm. 30mm on the road with 60 PSI ain't going anywhere regardless of how wide the rim is.

Wider rims in certain applications can be nicer and like I said there is benefits but the effect of the benefits is massively overblown. Never going to change my mind on that.

Keep in mind I designed and brought to market the widest purpose built cyclocross rim as well. It has it's moments and applications...but slap a 30 on a 19mm rim and on a 25mm rim pump them both to 60 psi and have 2 guys race them down a descent. The fastest guy is still going to win.

MinnMan

Early in the thread there was a link and a plug for LightBicycle Wheels. I'm a big fan and have two sets- one rim brake, the other disk. As wheels, they are great, and a great value too. But if I had to do it again, I might go the way of HED Jets for the rim brakes. I'm not too happy in the rain with rim brakes and carbon wheels. Now that I have a choice (n+2 this year), I basically don't ride that bike if there's a chance of rain.

shorter - for rim brakes, the wheel can be carbon or alloy, but get one with an alloy brake track.

79pmooney

Are folks racing the road and criteriums on 30c tires now? At 60 psi? Wow! Things have changed if that is true. (The OP did say he was a Cat 5 in his opening post.)

Psimet2001 

I have yet to see anyone toe the line with a 30 on. I have seen a lot of 28's though...

Give it 10 years and we'll be headed back to 19's

ridethecliche

I hope not! I much prefer the lower pressures that wider tires have made available!

To echo what psimet is saying, I doubt many of the frames that were built for Rim brakes in the last few years will clear anything over 28s if not 25s. I have a set of Williams system wheels that I rarely use anymore. They're way faster than my psimet wheels, but I don't really care to swap anymore.

So if youre in the NJ/PA area and are looking for a set of carbon Williams system 45 wheels with the virgo hubs, hit me up!


​​​​​​I've also heard phenomenal things about btlos rims/wheels from folks who I trust about this kind of thing. Good chance I'll be looking to them if I order a set of carbon disc wheels.
​

Gazoo4444

I've been looking for lightweight aluminum wheels, was between Dt swiss 1400 or shamls. Now reading this thread maybe I should look at more deeper rims? Would be a mix of riding. I think I climb around 800 meters over 100km

rubiksoval

Everyone seems to forget that dropping the pressure in wider tires negates any rolling resistance improvements. 100 psi on 25mm tires has less rolling resistance than 100 psi on 23 mm tires, but 80 psi on 25mm tires most likely does not.

Sure, there may be more comfort, but I see all of these people touting improved rolling resistance with wider tires when that's just not the case at the pressure's they're running.

Suffice to say, it's why I ride 23mm tires on 26mm rims at 95 psi. Fastest rolling resistance, fastest aero. Best of both worlds. Comfort doesn't currently factor in to my riding equation, but I'm sure it will at some point.

rubiksoval

I see mostly 23s and 25s at P/1/2 crits. Not sure I've seen a 28 (not that I inspect every tire).

Of course, as people have moved towards wider rims some of the tires (GP4Ks, in particular) bloomed out quite a bit, so 23s were more like 25s/26s, and 25s could measure out to 28ish.

Of course, here nearly everyone runs butyl tubes in their tires, so they're not exactly the most equipment optimized. I love that instant 6-7 watt advantage I have over every one of them.

mstateglfr 

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...000-comparison

Referencing a very popular training tire, rolling resistance is almost the same across sizes at 15% drop.
A 23mm tire at 108psi has 10.3watts of rolling resistance.
A 28mm tire at 90psi has 10.8watts of rolling resistance, and that also take into account a larger(therefore slower) tube too.

This effectively makes the 28mm tires about 25% more springy though because of how much more it deforms.

So if you normalize comfort across sizes, making each the same amount of comfort(spring), you end up with effectively equal rolling resistance.
A 23mm tire at 92psi has 11.3watts of rolling resistance.
A 28mm tire at 81psi has 11.4watts of rolling resistance.

rubiksoval

Except no one rides a 28mm at 90 psi, which is my point. Everyone touting the benefits of wider tires do so with the condition that they're "more comfortable" because they're run at lower pressures.

And at lower pressures, the rolling resistance is higher.

My 23s at 95 psi have a combined ~3 watts less rolling resistance than 25s at 80 psi, and nearly 7 watts versus a 28mm at 60 psi.


Tire GP 5000 GP 5000 GP 5000 GP 5000 Tire size 23-622 25-622 28-622 32-622\
120 psi / 8.3 Bar 10.0 Watts 10.0 Watts 9.7 Watts 9.2 Watts
100 psi / 6.9 Bar 10.6 Watts 10.7 Watts 10.3 Watts 9.7 Watts
80 psi / 5.5 Bar 12.2 Watts 12.1 Watts 11.5 Watts 11.0 Watts
60 psi / 4.1 Bar 14.8 Watts 14.2 Watts 14.1 Watts 12.9 Watts

WhyFi

I think that a lot of people lump suspension losses in with rolling resistance.

mstateglfr 

totally agree. I offered up those numbers since in an earlier post you mentioned not fully knowing rolling resistance of a wider tires at lower pressure.
The numbers I cited aren't exact to what you mention though.