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Shorter cranks.

Old 03-07-21, 09:55 AM
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Helderberg
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Shorter cranks.

Have any of you had a knee issue and ended up changing your cranks to a shorter length? I am considering doing this as the 175's that came on my bike are, according to all of the articles and graphs and tables I have read, are much too long for my short legs. It is proposed that it is a considerable contributing factor to some of my knee issues. I have a second bike with 172.5's and I have much less of an issue with my knees with this bike so it seems to have some validity. It is a relatively costly swap so I was hoping to get some real-time feedback before I order the parts and attempt the change. I am looking to change from the 175's to 170's or the165's that the tables say are correct for my leg length. I am concerned that I will be making the hills a more difficult issue as I have a lot of them where I live. Thanks in advance.
Frank.
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Old 03-07-21, 10:10 AM
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How could anyone advise you when you haven't provided the frame size you are riding, your height, or your inseam?
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Old 03-07-21, 10:11 AM
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After reading your post, I was wondering the same thing. Found an article that seems to imply that it wouldn't affect climbing (we have gears for that, so it makes sense). Here's the article, hope you find it helpful: The Benefits of Reducing Your Crank Length | TrainingPeaks
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Old 03-07-21, 10:23 AM
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I've ridden with short cranks all my life in the 160 mm to 165 mm. When I built up my Paramount from a frame in 2017, I put 170 mm cranks on it because at the time the shorter were out of stock and/or not in the silver color I wanted then. I'm 5'-11" with 34.5" inseam.

Soon after I began riding it, I noticed a slight annoyance behind my knees, mostly my right knee. Never enough to keep me from riding as hard or as long as I wanted. And it usually bothered me more after I was off the bike and relaxed during the evening watching TV or reading.

I put up with it thinking I'd get used to it for four months. Then a short crank in silver came available, I ordered it, put it on and that feeling behind my knees was gone. It was only 5 mm difference, but I even noticed that I was more comfortable with my legs not pushing up into my gut as far when I was in the drops and very aero.

If you do decide to try shorter cranks, make certain that you don't already depend on that lowest gear on your bike. If you do, then you might also need to change your gearing too.
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Old 03-07-21, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
I've ridden with short cranks all my life in the 160 mm to 165 mm. When I built up my Paramount from a frame in 2017, I put 170 mm cranks on it because at the time the shorter were out of stock and/or not in the silver color I wanted then. I'm 5'-11" with 34.5" inseam.

Soon after I began riding it, I noticed a slight annoyance behind my knees, mostly my right knee. Never enough to keep me from riding as hard or as long as I wanted. And it usually bothered me more after I was off the bike and relaxed during the evening watching TV or reading.

I put up with it thinking I'd get used to it for four months. Then a short crank in silver came available, I ordered it, put it on and that feeling behind my knees was gone. It was only 5 mm difference, but I even noticed that I was more comfortable with my legs not pushing up into my gut as far when I was in the drops and very aero.

If you do decide to try shorter cranks, make certain that you don't already depend on that lowest gear on your bike. If you do, then you might also need to change your gearing too.
Thank you for this. I do use the lowest gear but only to try to keep as much strain off my knee as I can. I am thinking 165mm from the 175 as my inseam is 29". I also realize that at my age, 72, the obvious knee issues are not going to be solved with just a crank change. At some point, I might have to face replacement but for now, I believe a shorter crank arm will help. And who knows, it might be enough to fend off the surgery.
Thank s again, Frank.
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Old 03-07-21, 01:44 PM
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My brother-in-law just had a knee replacement. He had issues for 20 years with his knee. He now wonders why he waited so long. However he doesn't ride bikes. But he is otherwise very active and using his legs all the time.

EDIT:
I said "just had" but thinking about it, it's been over a year. He's out cutting down damaged trees and cleaning up from the ice storm several weeks ago on the acreage he has. He's a fair bit older than me and just don't know when to slow down.

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Old 03-07-21, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg
Thank you for this. I do use the lowest gear but only to try to keep as much strain off my knee as I can. I am thinking 165mm from the 175 as my inseam is 29". I also realize that at my age, 72, the obvious knee issues are not going to be solved with just a crank change. At some point, I might have to face replacement but for now, I believe a shorter crank arm will help. And who knows, it might be enough to fend off the surgery.
Thank s again, Frank.
Inseam measurement? Is that your pants size or the measurement from the a straight edge in your naked crotch to the floor, you in your socks?
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Old 03-07-21, 02:13 PM
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The ancient advice, shorter cranks - slightly smaller gears. Say 172.5 to 165. Say starting with 50-36 x 11-32.

an equivalent would be 165/172.5 X 50 = 47, X 36 = 34 so a crankset of 47-34 or:
172.5,165 X 12 = 12.6 (13), X 32 = 33.4 (34).

I'd probably go with a 48-34 crankset or 13-24 cassette. More important - get the cranks your body likes! Life's too short to ride the wrong ones. I'm a long skinny guy. My knees to not like crank length changes. 175s work for me really well. I use them for all my bikes, including my three fix gears. I'm not saying at all you should go bigger - just go "right for your". That your knees like 172.5s more than 175s says a lot. Explore smaller and watch how your knees (and the rest of you) respond.)
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Old 03-07-21, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Inseam measurement? Is that your pants size or the measurement from the a straight edge in your naked crotch to the floor, you in your socks?
Inseam is 29-29.5 depending on how uncomfortable I want to pull up on the level and that was in socks. I could probably make it 30 but life is too short.
Frank.
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Old 03-07-21, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg
Inseam is 29-29.5 depending on how uncomfortable I want to pull up on the level and that was in socks. I could probably make it 30 but life is too short.
Frank.
So 162.5 would be even better if you can find them. One understands that shorter cranks mean slightly lower gearing and spinning faster to put out the same power/maintain the same speed - it's a torque issue. You'll want gear inches then of .92 * what you use now, like maybe 1 cog tooth lower, no big deal.
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Old 03-07-21, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
So 162.5 would be even better if you can find them. One understands that shorter cranks mean slightly lower gearing and spinning faster to put out the same power/maintain the same speed - it's a torque issue. You'll want gear inches then of .92 * what you use now, like maybe 1 cog tooth lower, no big deal.
Thank you for this. I have ordered 165 as I am matching a 9 speed rear cog set so Sora 165mm. I had already had the rear cogs bumped to 11-36 so this should be a good compromise. I was looking into possibly an 11-40 for the rear cogs but tough to find in 9 speed. I think the benefit of not pinching my knees at the top of the stroke is in itself going to be an improvement. What I found I was doing was splaying my knees out at the top of the stroke and not correcting on the down push. If I could concentrate on keeping my knees in at the top I would not feel any pain in my knee. When fatigued it would be harder for me to keep up with it. I don't think this will be a bad move regardless so I have ordered the Sora crankset, Ultraga BB, and the tools to do the job. Glad I have two bikes as this will be a definite teaching moment for me.
Thanks again for your help, Frank.
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Old 03-07-21, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg
Thank you for this. I have ordered 165 as I am matching a 9 speed rear cog set so Sora 165mm. I had already had the rear cogs bumped to 11-36 so this should be a good compromise. I was looking into possibly an 11-40 for the rear cogs but tough to find in 9 speed. I think the benefit of not pinching my knees at the top of the stroke is in itself going to be an improvement. What I found I was doing was splaying my knees out at the top of the stroke and not correcting on the down push. If I could concentrate on keeping my knees in at the top I would not feel any pain in my knee. When fatigued it would be harder for me to keep up with it. I don't think this will be a bad move regardless so I have ordered the Sora crankset, Ultraga BB, and the tools to do the job. Glad I have two bikes as this will be a definite teaching moment for me.
Thanks again for your help, Frank.
I found an 11-40 9-speed cassette on Amazon for our tandem. Works fine, but one needs to add a Wolf Tooth Roadlink to move the RD down.

The knees are a perpetual geezer issue, though some folks hit geezer at 40. Oddly enough, the cure is to do unweighted full depth squats, hams on calves, first slowly working up to going down that far, perhaps over a period of many months, doing a few squats say every other day. Always stop at the point where discomfort begins, never pushing into pain. Then after one can get all the way down, doing like 3 sets a couple times a week. If you've ever visited the Middle to Far East, you'd see people resting in that full squat position on street corners. It's very comfortable and human knee joints are built particularly to be able to do that resting position.

That said, you really are better off with the shorter cranks, regardless of knee issues because your legs will spend more time with less knee bend, which is the stronger range of motion.
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Old 03-07-21, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
I found an 11-40 9-speed cassette on Amazon for our tandem. Works fine, but one needs to add a Wolf Tooth Roadlink to move the RD down.

The knees are a perpetual geezer issue, though some folks hit geezer at 40. Oddly enough, the cure is to do unweighted full depth squats, hams on calves, first slowly working up to going down that far, perhaps over a period of many months, doing a few squats say every other day. Always stop at the point where discomfort begins, never pushing into pain. Then after one can get all the way down, doing like 3 sets a couple times a week. If you've ever visited the Middle to Far East, you'd see people resting in that full squat position on street corners. It's very comfortable and human knee joints are built particularly to be able to do that resting position.

That said, you really are better off with the shorter cranks, regardless of knee issues because your legs will spend more time with less knee bend, which is the stronger range of motion.
I was stationed in South East Asia during the war and I do remember the seated position you are describing. Just thinking about that makes my knees hurt. When I got out of the service I went to work with my father as an apprentice plumber. The older guys that worked for my father would tell me not to kneel on the concrete. At least use a piece of corrugated cardboard they would say, but I was 24 years old and I knew everything. I should have listened but as my uncle used to say, "Smart too late". Thanks again for your help and I will give the exercises you described a try, carefully.
Be safe.

P/s: What was the brand 11-40 cassette you found? Might be something I will need in the future.
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Old 03-08-21, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg
I was stationed in South East Asia during the war and I do remember the seated position you are describing. Just thinking about that makes my knees hurt. When I got out of the service I went to work with my father as an apprentice plumber. The older guys that worked for my father would tell me not to kneel on the concrete. At least use a piece of corrugated cardboard they would say, but I was 24 years old and I knew everything. I should have listened but as my uncle used to say, "Smart too late". Thanks again for your help and I will give the exercises you described a try, carefully.
Be safe.

P/s: What was the brand 11-40 cassette you found? Might be something I will need in the future.
Amazon doesn't have the one I bought any more, but here are two more:
https://www.amazon.com/Race-CSM980-9...dp/B01N4KXIQF/
https://www.amazon.com/Cassette-11-4...dp/B078XGXJZ7/

I knelt for 40 years, but used knee pads after the first 5. My knees used to hurt, too. I think they got better when I stopped using ibutprofen when they hurt, started lifting at the gym, and did more hiking in the mountains, years of it. I've also taken glucosamine sulfate and MSM for 30 years, but I don't think that had anything to do with my knee issue, though it might be part of the reason that my knee cartilage is still perfect.
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Old 03-08-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Amazon doesn't have the one I bought any more, but here are two more:
https://www.amazon.com/Race-CSM980-9...dp/B01N4KXIQF/
https://www.amazon.com/Cassette-11-4...dp/B078XGXJZ7/

I knelt for 40 years, but used knee pads after the first 5. My knees used to hurt, too. I think they got better when I stopped using ibutprofen when they hurt, started lifting at the gym, and did more hiking in the mountains, years of it. I've also taken glucosamine sulfate and MSM for 30 years, but I don't think that had anything to do with my knee issue, though it might be part of the reason that my knee cartilage is still perfect.
Thanks for the link and I envy you your knees.
Be safe, Frank.
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Old 03-08-21, 12:44 PM
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My wife has hip and knee issues and rode 165mm arms for years. When I converted her bike to 650B wheels, I also changed the arms to 155mm, mostly to keep ground clearance. It hasn't been a problem.
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Old 03-08-21, 12:53 PM
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I’ve had knee issues since an overexertion event in my teens. Shorter cranks makes it easier to keep the cadence up, which the knees appreciate.
There’s nothing I could ride with the longer cranks that I can’t ride with the shorter cranks.
Although I’m still slightly faster on the longer cranks - at least day one.
These days I tend to value being able to sleep w/o painkillers more than being as fast as possible.
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Old 03-08-21, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg
Inseam is 29-29.5 depending on how uncomfortable I want to pull up on the level and that was in socks. I could probably make it 30 but life is too short.
Frank.
I have the same inseam, and switched to 165's a couple of years ago, much better now

get ready though, now you are going to have to change all your bikes, it was expensive for me to do.
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Old 03-08-21, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tom L
I have the same inseam, and switched to 165's a couple of years ago, much better now

get ready though, now you are going to have to change all your bikes, it was expensive for me to do.
Honestly, I have already lined up the parts I will need for my other bike. Thanks for the heads up.
Frank.
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Old 03-09-21, 11:41 AM
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I'm 5'7" with a cycling inseam of 31" and change. I've ridden 165s since 1984 when I rode my first track bike and converted every road bike since to 165s.

Caveat: I'm a natural spinner.
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Old 03-09-21, 01:43 PM
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I changed from 175 cranks to 170s. I went for a short ride on a friend's new SS that had 170s and it was astounding how much more comfortable the pedaling was. I used to get some knee pain after long or tough rides and that's no longer the case. No scientific or medical proof of anything, but its been working for me for a few years now.
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Old 03-09-21, 04:10 PM
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My wife, JoLynn has very short legs and we changed out her Crank arms to "152 mm" triple crankset and she says it's a LOT easier on her knees and let's her "SPIN" much more than before. I'm thinking of switching to 160 mm crankarms myself!!
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Old 03-09-21, 05:19 PM
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I have been informed that my order, 165mm Sora Crankset, bottom bracket, and necessary tools are on the way. Should have everything by the end of the week or so and will try to get the change made soon thereafter. Will definitely keep you all in the loop as to my experience. I have also already looked up the parts for my other bike but am waiting on this change first.
Thanks again to all of you that have tried to help this old guy stay on a bike a little longer.
Frank.
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Old 03-10-21, 05:34 AM
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Interesting read here. I am 6'3" with a 35 inch pant inseam. I rode 170 for years and then had a bike fit which said 175. I made the switch and actually prefer it -- fewer knee issues. To each their own.
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Old 03-10-21, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dmanders
Interesting read here. I am 6'3" with a 35 inch pant inseam. I rode 170 for years and then had a bike fit which said 175. I made the switch and actually prefer it -- fewer knee issues. To each their own.
Your inseam is 6" longer than mine. What I would have done in my teens to be 6'3" tall. Glad you have found what works for you and I hope you have many years of pain-free enjoyment on your bikes.
Frank.
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