Myths of the road tubeless (or Go back to clinchers)
#126
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What did you use? Stan's under two different labels?
I was the person that used OS at 100-105psi. OS would seal that. Any sealant to be used at road pressures should have particulate, as does OS. But we're just talking in circles because I've done it and you haven't, but you somehow know better.
I just don't understand why you don't go back to tubes if a) you're not willing to do this right b) you never had a problem with punctures. You're essentially running a TT tire. Are you just looking for the absolute lowest RR for races, or what?
I was the person that used OS at 100-105psi. OS would seal that. Any sealant to be used at road pressures should have particulate, as does OS. But we're just talking in circles because I've done it and you haven't, but you somehow know better.
I just don't understand why you don't go back to tubes if a) you're not willing to do this right b) you never had a problem with punctures. You're essentially running a TT tire. Are you just looking for the absolute lowest RR for races, or what?
1. Lots of tubeless at 23-25 mm are rated well above 70-75 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us that only a few sealants would really seal at those pressures.
2. Many (or most) sealants do not seal well above 70-80 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us about that.
Therefore, within 23-25 mm tubeless range, I think the user has much more than 50% chances to buy a combination that does not seal (as I did), due to lacking of information in products manuals. That’s why I say that it is not a mature product on the market: launched many years ago and still misleading many times.
Maybe another setup would work – say 25mm tubeless instead of my 23, with your recommended OS. But I’ll not spend further 100 EUR on top of initial 200, while my old tubed can give me over 6000 km of riding, safe and for free.
#127
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Those patches are never used on the road. They're supposed to make a permanent repair, after getting home with a tube in the tire. That's why I carry a tube. Plugs and bacon strips aren't always a permanent fix.
I've never patched a tube on the road either. Never carried a patch kit.
I've never patched a tube on the road either. Never carried a patch kit.
#128
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Perhaps a permanent fix on low pressure mtb, but not higher pressure road bikes. I can use 65 psi with my 28mm tires. Anyone using much over 75 can probably expect problems.
#129
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Well Dynaplugs definitely work fine at 70 psi. I don't really care beyond that pressure on a tubeless tyre.
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#131
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It is not personal; I don’t contest your positive experience with sealant at 100 PSI and I have nothing against tubeless. The idea is that:
1. Lots of tubeless at 23-25 mm are rated well above 70-75 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us that only a few sealants would really seal at those pressures.
2. Many (or most) sealants do not seal well above 70-80 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us about that.
Therefore, within 23-25 mm tubeless range, I think the user has much more than 50% chances to buy a combination that does not seal (as I did), due to lacking of information in products manuals. That’s why I say that it is not a mature product on the market: launched many years ago and still misleading many times.
Maybe another setup would work – say 25mm tubeless instead of my 23, with your recommended OS. But I’ll not spend further 100 EUR on top of initial 200, while my old tubed can give me over 6000 km of riding, safe and for free.
1. Lots of tubeless at 23-25 mm are rated well above 70-75 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us that only a few sealants would really seal at those pressures.
2. Many (or most) sealants do not seal well above 70-80 PSI, but their producers don’t inform us about that.
Therefore, within 23-25 mm tubeless range, I think the user has much more than 50% chances to buy a combination that does not seal (as I did), due to lacking of information in products manuals. That’s why I say that it is not a mature product on the market: launched many years ago and still misleading many times.
Maybe another setup would work – say 25mm tubeless instead of my 23, with your recommended OS. But I’ll not spend further 100 EUR on top of initial 200, while my old tubed can give me over 6000 km of riding, safe and for free.
And yeah, 4oz of OS is $8. I'm not on top of the conversion rate, but if that comes out to 100 EUR, I need to buy a bunch of stuff from the EU while the dollar is stronk.
But all of this is beside the point - if you can get 6000km out of a tubed TT wheel, you shouldn't have been wandered in to tubeless in the first place.
#132
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Saying that it's not a mature product because you used a sealant that exaggerated its effectiveness is like saying kitchen knives are an immature product because your as-seen-on-TV Ginsu didn't live up to expectations. You were duped by marketing and unscrupulous and/or unknowledgeable salespeople.
And yeah, 4oz of OS is $8. I'm not on top of the conversion rate, but if that comes out to 100 EUR, I need to buy a bunch of stuff from the EU while the dollar is stronk.
But all of this is beside the point - if you can get 6000km out of a tubed TT wheel, you shouldn't have been wandered in to tubeless in the first place.
And yeah, 4oz of OS is $8. I'm not on top of the conversion rate, but if that comes out to 100 EUR, I need to buy a bunch of stuff from the EU while the dollar is stronk.
But all of this is beside the point - if you can get 6000km out of a tubed TT wheel, you shouldn't have been wandered in to tubeless in the first place.
#133
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Saying that it's not a mature product because you used a sealant that exaggerated its effectiveness is like saying kitchen knives are an immature product because your as-seen-on-TV Ginsu didn't live up to expectations. You were duped by marketing and unscrupulous and/or unknowledgeable salespeople.
And yeah, 4oz of OS is $8. I'm not on top of the conversion rate, but if that comes out to 100 EUR, I need to buy a bunch of stuff from the EU while the dollar is stronk.
But all of this is beside the point - if you can get 6000km out of a tubed TT wheel, you shouldn't have been wandered in to tubeless in the first place.
And yeah, 4oz of OS is $8. I'm not on top of the conversion rate, but if that comes out to 100 EUR, I need to buy a bunch of stuff from the EU while the dollar is stronk.
But all of this is beside the point - if you can get 6000km out of a tubed TT wheel, you shouldn't have been wandered in to tubeless in the first place.
1. Many (or most) sealants do not seal at the high pressure requested by many tubeless in the range of 23-25 mm. Don’t take my word, just search on the web and above in this thread for such experiences. And look at those using 28mm+, that accept lower pressures: pretty much none of them complains.
2. The 6000km is roughly the distance I can ride free of charge with my old tubed Continental 5000 (23mm) that I replaced with actual tubeless (I used those tubed 4000 km and the total I usually get from such tires from new is 10000-11000 km).
3. The minimum 100 EUR to change the system come from 80-90 EUR for 25mm normal tubeless (instead of actual 23 mm Corsa speed), plus 20-30 for sealant, plus delivery.
And no "unscrupulous and/or unknowledgeable salespeople" pressed me to buy the actual system (tires + sealant) that does not seal. I simply bought it online, based on the official specifications of the producers. They did not warn anywhere that such system will not seal, nor that I should use only one particular sealant.
#134
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We can also think natural: maybe a number of people are interested to better understand the tubeless topic. If I had such information available (which producers do not release), I would have done differently: either try a 25mm + OS alternative instead of 23 + other sealants, or not switch at all to tubeless, since my rims, frame and personal preferences do not allow for more than 25 mm.
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I don't need to take your word for it or do a search - it's all moot when I know, through experience, of a particular sealant that does do as you desire. This is so dumb.
#136
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Basic "Cliff Notes" version of this thread: You made some bad choices, and instead of taking responsibility, you are blaming the world.
Longer explanation:
If you had asked here before making any purchases, you would have found out the stuff that Actually Works, and you could have talked to people who actually use the products and Know they work.
Instead of coming to a site frequented by a large number of cyclists and asking for testimonials Before purchasing, you made purchases based on advertisements (when has That ever not worked out, right?) and then came here complaining.
I understand why you are upset, but you don't seem to realize that you didn't make wise use of available resources and thus made bad purchase decisions.
If you would rather ride tubes ..... Ride Tubes.
Not that hard at all, when you think about it.
Longer explanation:
If you had asked here before making any purchases, you would have found out the stuff that Actually Works, and you could have talked to people who actually use the products and Know they work.
Instead of coming to a site frequented by a large number of cyclists and asking for testimonials Before purchasing, you made purchases based on advertisements (when has That ever not worked out, right?) and then came here complaining.
I understand why you are upset, but you don't seem to realize that you didn't make wise use of available resources and thus made bad purchase decisions.
If you would rather ride tubes ..... Ride Tubes.
Not that hard at all, when you think about it.
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#137
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It is true, I did not make tons of verifications before buying, I just relied on the brands on the market and their specifications and yes, I expected to work. In fact, it never happened to me to receive products or systems that don't fit, from known brands (e.g. bikes, phones, tv, other electronics, bike parts, etc). And I buy lots of my stuff over the internet.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
#138
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It is true, I did not make tons of verifications before buying, I just relied on the brands on the market and their specifications and yes, I expected to work. In fact, it never happened to me to receive products or systems that don't fit, from known brands (e.g. bikes, phones, tv, other electronics, bike parts, etc). And I buy lots of my stuff over the internet.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
When I pulled the tire it looked like the tape had places where the sealant had gone under the tape. Tried again with the same result. Tried different tape with the same result.
Bought a different brand of tape and sealant. Same results. Lather. rinse, repeat. After at least three brands of sealant and many failures I spoke with the folks at the LBS: came home with Orange Seal Regular. Used 3M 8896 tape. Covered the tape with neoprene paint used to seal bagpipes just for good luck.
My point is that because I really liked the way the tubeless tires felt and I wanted them to work, I kept on trying different things until I found one that worked.
By the way, I have a set of wheels on the way from Light Bicycle which are built with no drilled holes in the inner rim, so no <expletive> tape, which has been my biggest problem. Also, I have been using a tire mounting lubricant, which also acts as a bead sealer. The GP5000s I mounted most recently held 105 PSI overnight before I added Orange Seal Sub-zero, which is not their best sealant for road tires but is what I have on hand for my fat tire bike.
#139
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It is true, I did not make tons of verifications before buying, I just relied on the brands on the market and their specifications and yes, I expected to work. In fact, it never happened to me to receive products or systems that don't fit, from known brands (e.g. bikes, phones, tv, other electronics, bike parts, etc). And I buy lots of my stuff over the internet.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
But this discussion starts to be pushed rather to person than to the topic, so I'll stop, since I don't want to play such game.
#140
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To be fair, that's a bit of a condemnation of tubeless, isn't it? It shouldn't be that difficult.
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#141
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Sure glad that I bought wheels that need no rim tape (fulcrum racing 3), used orange seal endurance and Michelin 28mm tires that only need about 65 psi. That should minimize problems. I already know that I can easily install a tube on the road.
I made all of these decisions based on reading posts like this one where people discuss rim tape problems, sealants that don't work well and tires and rims that make mounting difficult. I have none of those problems.
I made all of these decisions based on reading posts like this one where people discuss rim tape problems, sealants that don't work well and tires and rims that make mounting difficult. I have none of those problems.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 10-12-21 at 02:15 PM.
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#142
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Well, it is not difficult! We have an OP who has on numerous attempts to get a tubeless bashing thread war started and after 20 contributions on this thread alone final got one going mainly by just repeating the same point over and over again. You a frequent contributor are well aware of how simple current tubeless technology really is and that it works very well.
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#144
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Really, it's not that hard. Most tales of impossible-to-fit tires can be chalked up to poor technique and, frankly, even those reports are starting to fall away as rim and tire manufacturers get on the same page. Sealant is the sticky bit, and we just have the misfortune of the 800lb sealant gorilla offering spotty results, at best. The extent of my "research" was to find an appropriate sealant at 100psi. I got it right on the first try.
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#145
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Really, it's not that hard. Most tales of impossible-to-fit tires can be chalked up to poor technique and, frankly, even those reports are starting to fall away as rim and tire manufacturers get on the same page. Sealant is the sticky bit, and we just have the misfortune of the 800lb sealant gorilla offering spotty results, at best. The extent of my "research" was to find an appropriate sealant at 100psi. I got it right on the first try.
I remember when car tubeless first came out, I got flats. The ordinary flat stopped happening in just a few years. Since then, I've had a car flat when the radial wires came through the sidewall due to a defective tire, hitting a rock just wrong on a mountain road, slashing the sidewall, and finding I'd run over a 16d nail upon returning from a hiking trip. I guess that latter had been an unnoticed slow leak. All of these flats were resolved by having a pumped up spare tire and wheel in the car. I never had to walk the 20 to 60 miles to somewhere I could get service. So that's a mature product.
Bike tires are inherently problematic no matter the construction due to the many constraints which car and truck tires don't have. I'm one-up on most cyclists because I carry a spare tire and tubes on every ride. I'd do that even if I rode tubeless, just because I don't like to walk miles in my bike shoes. It's quick to put on a spare tire and tube no matter the damage to the flatted tire. That's a big advantage over car and truck tires, which pretty much equalizes things as long as the rim will go both ways. No walking. I don't see how a more mature technology for TL bike tires will remove what I feel is my necessity to carry spares. When I go into the backcountry, I carry spares for every emergency I can think of. So far, I've always been able to walk out.
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#146
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If you have to consult online forums before buying a $1500+ bicycle, cycling is not simple enough.
Think how many $1500 bikes i could buy, from expensive hybrids to cheap F//S MTBs to beginner road bikes to medium-grade road bikes from a discount site to any number of used bikes of any variety. I could buy a fat bike for that money, or a lightweight road bike .....
What we need is for there to be only one kind of sealant, one kind of tire, one kind of wheel, and one kind of frame .... and only one kind of rider.
And who decides what a thing "should" be anyway? That is arbitrary.
There is a huge variety of applications for tubeless. Is fat-bike info (four psi, max folks) applicable to skinny-tire road bikes?
Shoot .... look at Chain Lube. Used to be, a handful of automotive grease .... then it was a drip of tri-flow. Now it is six thousand waxes, oils, semi-solids .... is that a problem?
No ... different stuff has different best applications. People who want to know, do the research.
By the way .... I bought generic tape in a 25-foot roll, Stan's sealant, generic valves, and did tubeless myself. I made a few mistakes because I over-tightened the valves, and had some trouble seating some tires .... but I figured it out, without doing too much research (I research Everything I spend money on, money being something which I cannot harvest from trees and such.) I run 28s at 105 psi, no issues so far. With Stan's no less.
But ... the idea that anything which can be done different ways for different and not remotely related applications is necessarily bad because people have to learn it .... sounds great for Dumbed-Down America or people too lazy to care. Otherwise, I suggest people research everything. We have huge amounts of computing power and access to a huge volume of information---resources people couldn't even dream of in the past---and we use it all to say that we shouldn't have to use it?
Yeah ... you stick with that thought. You will go far.
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#147
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It isn't clear to me, having looked around, if OS Endurance is as good as standard OS at 100 lbs.
I remember when car tubeless first came out, I got flats. The ordinary flat stopped happening in just a few years. Since then, I've had a car flat when the radial wires came through the sidewall due to a defective tire, hitting a rock just wrong on a mountain road, slashing the sidewall, and finding I'd run over a 16d nail upon returning from a hiking trip. I guess that latter had been an unnoticed slow leak. All of these flats were resolved by having a pumped up spare tire and wheel in the car. I never had to walk the 20 to 60 miles to somewhere I could get service. So that's a mature product.
Bike tires are inherently problematic no matter the construction due to the many constraints which car and truck tires don't have. I'm one-up on most cyclists because I carry a spare tire and tubes on every ride. I'd do that even if I rode tubeless, just because I don't like to walk miles in my bike shoes. It's quick to put on a spare tire and tube no matter the damage to the flatted tire. That's a big advantage over car and truck tires, which pretty much equalizes things as long as the rim will go both ways. No walking. I don't see how a more mature technology for TL bike tires will remove what I feel is my necessity to carry spares. When I go into the backcountry, I carry spares for every emergency I can think of. So far, I've always been able to walk out.
I remember when car tubeless first came out, I got flats. The ordinary flat stopped happening in just a few years. Since then, I've had a car flat when the radial wires came through the sidewall due to a defective tire, hitting a rock just wrong on a mountain road, slashing the sidewall, and finding I'd run over a 16d nail upon returning from a hiking trip. I guess that latter had been an unnoticed slow leak. All of these flats were resolved by having a pumped up spare tire and wheel in the car. I never had to walk the 20 to 60 miles to somewhere I could get service. So that's a mature product.
Bike tires are inherently problematic no matter the construction due to the many constraints which car and truck tires don't have. I'm one-up on most cyclists because I carry a spare tire and tubes on every ride. I'd do that even if I rode tubeless, just because I don't like to walk miles in my bike shoes. It's quick to put on a spare tire and tube no matter the damage to the flatted tire. That's a big advantage over car and truck tires, which pretty much equalizes things as long as the rim will go both ways. No walking. I don't see how a more mature technology for TL bike tires will remove what I feel is my necessity to carry spares. When I go into the backcountry, I carry spares for every emergency I can think of. So far, I've always been able to walk out.
All of my bicycle touring has been done on tube tires and I carried a spare tire and tube along with a patch kit. I will probably carry a spare tire when we start touting again. The people I know who carry a spare tire on local rides are all riding tubular tires.
As far as automobile tires go, nobody wants to run tube tires today. It will not surprise me if we see bicycle tires diverge into "performance" (tubeless pneumatic tires) and "fail-safe" (like the Schwalbe Airless Urban or Tannus tires).
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Really, it's not that hard. Most tales of impossible-to-fit tires can be chalked up to poor technique and, frankly, even those reports are starting to fall away as rim and tire manufacturers get on the same page. Sealant is the sticky bit, and we just have the misfortune of the 800lb sealant gorilla offering spotty results, at best. The extent of my "research" was to find an appropriate sealant at 100psi. I got it right on the first try.
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#150
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Simple enough for what?
If I cannot buy a bicycle and just ride off on it .... if I cannot immediately understand how the derailleurs work, if I cannot keep them adjusted, if I have to understand spoke tension enough to know that I need my wheels trues, if I cannot instinctively adjust my brake and derailleur cables when they take that first stretch ... then I guess cycling ls not simple enough.
We should ban it.
If I cannot buy a bicycle and just ride off on it .... if I cannot immediately understand how the derailleurs work, if I cannot keep them adjusted, if I have to understand spoke tension enough to know that I need my wheels trues, if I cannot instinctively adjust my brake and derailleur cables when they take that first stretch ... then I guess cycling ls not simple enough.
We should ban it.
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