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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 07-23-22, 06:58 PM
  #776  
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Originally Posted by timtak

Here is once of Greg Lemond's famous bikes. I was thinking of purchasing one like this recently but it did not have so many gears. Nice geometry and great colour though.

Greg LeMong's XLV aluminium butted carbon bike

Here is Greg LeMond and the man he beat Laurent Fignon

no parachute
Here they are from a different angle


Drops not far about the front wheel, back pretty flat.
More pictures of John Cobb advised Greg LeMond here on these forums.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ottecchia.html

As far as I am aware the first bikes that I rode when I was at high school, and the ones I have gradually rediscovered and now ride again tend to put the riders back horizontal to the road, because in the days when the pro tour riders rode more like amateur riders (because there were MORE breakaways) that geometry was and remains fast, comfortable, and beautiful too.

Eddy Merxx bike (1970's?)


Moser 1970's

Pantini's aluminium bike with brifters.
The saddle to bar drop in every single one of those bikes is easily achievable with modern bikes Road Racing bikes.
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Old 07-23-22, 07:02 PM
  #777  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta
The saddle to bar drop in every single one of those bikes is easily achievable with modern bikes Road Racing bikes.
And none of them approach the ridiculous setup of TicTok's bike.
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Old 07-23-22, 07:06 PM
  #778  
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Originally Posted by timtak
Well, as I thought I had said before, the current pro tour uses Robbie style and more, back positioning, narrow at the front, body suits, you name it, when riding solo........"
Wait a minute.... if modern bikes are too upright to ride with a flat back, how are these people doing this? Are they all riding 25 year old race bikes?

I think you just acknowledged that the bikes you think we should have are in fact still available.
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Old 07-23-22, 07:09 PM
  #779  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
??? It can't be less important and more important at the same time. Anyway, you aren't racing (so, you aren't in a "breakaway" or a TT).
I think you will find that I was writing about different times. The importance of being aerodynamic will often be (depending on the amateur rider's priorities)
Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)

Originally Posted by njkayaker
An amateur rider is riding much slower. And it doesn't matter (it's not important) if they are a bit slower or not.
Tell that to the amateurs who are paying nearly 13,000 USD for a Pinarello Dogma F

Originally Posted by njkayaker
No one is arguing that riding in peloton is different. You aren't "exposing" anytthing.
You missed a "n't" there, but reading it in, is it true that "No one is arguing that riding in the peloton isn't different"?

I think that when people walk into the local BS shop, attendants, as people have been saying on this thread, "this is the fastest bike in the world, ridden by the pros, the pros, the pros this and the pros that, the pros who get millions in prize money, so you can be sure it is the fastest, the best, the most sophisticated, and well worth it bike in the world, and only 13,000 USD."

There is an omission there. "Oh by the way, you do ride in an aero line, in team races in a peloton where aerodynamics matter as much as if you were drafting a truck, don't you?" The local BS shop attendants do not tend to check up on this, because if they did, and they helped the amateur find the bike suitable for the way the amateur rides, then I think they would be saying "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder," you should either put a drop stem on your Dogma F or purchase some "old junk" for about one 20th of the price, and you will ride faster, with a more easily maintainable bike.

You are right, no one argues that riding in the peloton is the same as riding solo, but the omission leads to that which I think may be purchase mistakes.

By the way, I do sometimes draft trucks and buses and I don't put myself in a tuck when I do so, because there is no need, and because I might bump into the bus if it braked. Pros, and amateur crit riders, do not get down low when drafting the pack for similar reasons, I think.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I can buy virtually any old "grail" bike in days. Nobody wants that old junk. But try to find a 62 cm Dogma F within a year's wait. I hear top Trek bikes have similar waits.Seems the market speaks.
Indeed. I am recommending the "old junk" with brifters, or new unsponsored Chinese and Taiwanese made bikes with horizontal top tubes. I am part of the market.

Originally Posted by ofajen
This is a perfect distillation of where you are stuck. This is clearly your opinion, but you state it as a fact. What is important to any particular amateur rider is for the rider to decide, and the vast majority simply don’t prioritize aerodynamics over all other considerations. Otto
Very true Otto. You sum up my position well.

I think that there are many people who want to ride "comfortably" and looking at the scenery, and who have back problems, and whose belly size does not allow them to go low. When I was like that it wasn't so much that going low was "uncomfortable" but that my knees and my belly could not coexist. But as my shape returned to normal, I had this weird parachute style of riding a road bike. It took me a while to realise that I needed to do as Robbie is doing, in order (again in Cobb's words) "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder."

Riding with a chest parachute is fine if you are a pro in a peloton, or if you want to ride comfortably, slowly, looking at the scenery, but not if you want to lose more weight, keep the weight off, enjoy the thrill of going fast even though your legs are getting older and weaker, if you want to feel like you are flying (as i did again this morning partly thanks to this thread, which seems to fuel my cycling).

Originally Posted by WhyFi
Humans evolved to become the undisputed kings of persistence hunting, wearing down prey that's otherwise physically superior. TimTak seems to be taking a page from that playbook with persistence ********ting; wearing down opposition from in a weak, unsupported position, with his sheer volume of unending nonsense. Kudos.
I have heard that theory but I don't think it is true. I think that probably humans scavenged the kills of faster hunters (quadrupeds) which they kept at bay with their human tools and teamwork.

Originally Posted by genejockey
The idea of doing the whole thing in the drops or aero hoods is simply nonsensical.
Who suggests this "nonsense" I am unsure. Cobb says of Robbie's position that he could ride that all day. The "could" is important here. I think he means to say Robbie's position is so comfortable he could ride like that all day, not that Cobb (or I) recommend riding in the hooks up Alpe-d'Huez.

Originally Posted by Kapusta
Because (unless I am mistaken) that is neither Greg LeMond nor Lance Armstrong.
Why do you keep insisting on the pros Kapusta? Is it not enough that John Cobb's advice is from a paid and celebrated advisor to the pros, advising someone (Robbie) who rides like we do?

There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?

Originally Posted by tomato coupe
Yeah, why are we supposed to care what some local rider (i.e. Robbie) does with his setup?
You are not supposed to care about Robbie does, but about what John Cobb (paid advisor to at least one World beater) says that Robbie should do with his setup, bearing in mind that Robbie's solo riding is similar to many non competitive amateur riders, like myself.

Originally Posted by Kapusta
The saddle to bar drop in every single one of those bikes is easily achievable with modern bikes Road Racing bikes.
The important difference, as pointed out by John Cobb in the video, is the headtube height, which partly determines the drops to wheel distance. I like to have my drops not far above my front wheel like Robbie because, that has allowed me to go fast and stay not too fat, so far, thanks to members, encouragement.

Correction. The Pinarello Dogma F has a pretty aggressive geometry for a contemporary bike. I may try and save up.
https://ciclicorsa.com/shop/dogma-f-...complete-bike/

Last edited by timtak; 07-23-22 at 07:43 PM. Reason: drafting buses, with gratitude, punctuation
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Old 07-23-22, 07:20 PM
  #780  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I think you will find that I was writing about different times. The importance of being aerodynamic will often be (depending on the amateur rider's priorities)
Pro in a time trial > Solo Amateur rider > Pro in a peloton (@ofajen is right on my being "stuck" on this equation)
You are skipping over a 4th item. You keep implying that pros in a race (not a time trial) are always in a peloton. This is deranged.

And it isn't "important" that a solo amateur be aerodynamic. This is just a claim you keep making. It doesn't matter if a solo amateur is a bit slower.

The amateur’s life won’t be much different if they are riding a $3k “cheapy” or a blingy $13k bike. Their job as a dentist isn’t going to change.

Originally Posted by timtak
Originally Posted by njkayaker
The cost and time necessary to be able to win a race says otherwise. An amateur rider is riding much slower. And it doesn't matter (it's not important) if they are a bit slower or not.
Tell that to the amateurs who are paying nearly 13,000 USD for a Pinarello Dogma F
No. An amateur paying $12k for a bike is generally just wealthy (or loose with money). They aren't spending all of their time training for races. And it still doesn't if they are a bit slower or not.

Originally Posted by timtak
I think that when people walk into the local BS shop, attendants, as people have been saying on this thread, "this is the fastest bike in the world, ridden by the pros, the pros, the pros this and the pros that, the pros who get millions in prize money," so you can be sure it is the fastest, the best, the most sophisticated, and well worth it bike in the world, and only 13,000 USD.
$13k bikes are mostly vanity items. Like Rolexes.

Originally Posted by timtak
Originally Posted by njkayaker
No one is arguing that riding in pelotons is different. You aren't "exposing" anything.
You missed a "n't" there, but reading it in, is it true that "No one is arguing that riding in the peloton isn't different"?
Yes, no one is arguing that they are the same. You keep arguing about pelotons being different. You aren't "exposing" anything.

Originally Posted by timtak
You are right, no one argues that riding in the peloton is the same as riding solo, but the omission leads to that which I think may be purchase mistakes.
What "omission"?

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-23-22 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 07-23-22, 07:22 PM
  #781  
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Originally Posted by timtak
You are not supposed to care about Robbie does, but about what John Cobb (paid advisor to at least one World beater) says that Robbie should do with his setup, bearing in mind that Robbie's set up is similar to many non competitive amateur riders, like myself.
You mean the guy that said this, in a recent interview:

JC: “I’m not currently working with any European pros; I’m working with a number of guys in the Zwift League. One, in fact, wasn’t ever a road rider, but now [after a number of changes Cobb helped him make] he’s really fast. He can hold 450-plus watts for 20 minutes and average 947 for 15 seconds . . . . This indoor cycling stuff is really catching on. [So much so that] some of the triathletes I advise never ride on the road until the day of the race. And they still absolutely rip it.”
So, the guy who pitches extremely aggressive aerodynamic bike setups is presently only working with guys who ride indoor bikes?
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Old 07-23-22, 07:29 PM
  #782  
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Originally Posted by timtak
Why do you keep insisting on the pros Kapusta? Is it not enough that John Cobb's advice is from a paid and celebrated advisor to the pros, advising someone (Robbie) who rides like we do?

There is no Pro model for the amateur ride, but for some reason, you keep insisting upon a pro model. Why is this?.
Here is a refresher.....
Originally Posted by timtak
tomato coupe and WhyFi Both Greg LeMond and Lance Armstrong did put John Cobb on their payroll. Go on, say, "Oh, sorry Tim!"
Originally Posted by Kapusta
OK, so please show us an example of one of their bikes that is set up like yours, and looks any different from road racing bikes sold today.
Originally Posted by timtak
Why look any further than Robbie's bike which I have already shown you?
Originally Posted by Kapusta
Because (unless I am mistaken) that is neither Greg LeMond nor Lance Armstrong.
You keep using Cobb as the definitive source of why everyone's bike should be set up like yours. Then YOU brought up the fact that Armstrong and Lemond used Cobb. So it begs the question... why don't we see their bikes set up like yours with saddles pushed all the way back on setback posts and 220mm neg 45 deg stems?
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Old 07-23-22, 07:42 PM
  #783  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
And none of them approach the ridiculous setup of TicTok's bike.
And I have to assume that he hasn't watched the Tour today, or any TT stage within the last five years, if he thinks that his set-up emulates that of a pro's TT set-up.
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Old 07-23-22, 07:49 PM
  #784  
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I can't believe that some of you are wasting time on this doofus.
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Old 07-23-22, 08:05 PM
  #785  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I can't believe that some of you are wasting time on this doofus.
I know I should not, but its just too easy. He keeps teeing up the ball so perfectly, and all you have to do is swing.

It's like popping bubble wrap.
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Old 07-23-22, 08:29 PM
  #786  
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Originally Posted by timtak
Who suggests this "nonsense" I am unsure. Cobb says of Robbie's position that he could ride that all day. The "could" is important here. I think he means to say Robbie's position is so comfortable he could ride like that all day, not that Cobb (or I) recommend riding in the hooks up Alpe-d'Huez.
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Old 07-23-22, 08:44 PM
  #787  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
I can't believe that some of you are wasting time on this doofus.
Put in a quarter, spin the knob, get another unhinged aero manifesto.
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Old 07-24-22, 01:13 AM
  #788  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe
You mean the guy that said this, in a recent interview: So, the guy who pitches extremely aggressive aerodynamic bike setups is presently only working with guys who ride indoor bikes?
I read that too, and wondered. Note that he says in the part that you quote "I advise never ride on the road until the day of the race. And they still absolutely rip it.” Which means that the people he advises practice on Zwift and then win road races, so I presume he is teaching them how to be aero in their homes.


Originally Posted by Kapusta
Here is a refresher.....
And you proceed to list the number of times that you have asked for a pro set up similar Cobb is recommending, as if I needed reminding, without mentioning that I have repeatedly replied that there is no Pro model because pros ride in a different style. Why do you keep asking me for something that does not exist?

Originally Posted by Kapusta
You keep using Cobb as the definitive source of why everyone's bike should be set up like yours.Then YOU brought up the fact that Armstrong and Lemond used Cobb.
I mention Cobb (and my own experience, and aerodynamics) because you seem to be only persuaded by what Pros do and Cobb was affiliated with some famous ones.

Originally Posted by Kapusta
So it begs the question... why don't we see their bikes set up like yours with saddles pushed all the way back on setback posts and 220mm neg 45 deg stems?
We don't see bikes like Robbie's because the Pros rarely ride road bikes solo, whereas many amateurs do.

Originally Posted by WhyFi
And I have to assume that he hasn't watched the Tour today, or any TT stage within the last five years, if he thinks that his set-up emulates that of a pro's TT set-up.
The pros, the pros! I don't think my bike emulates the pros. My bike emulates John Cobbs advice to an extent. It is also partly of my own invention. And the invention is informed by the pros. I can see that when they are drafting they ride very high, and when they are riding solo they ride very low but unsafely. The compromises that I try to reach, and that Cobb recommends, are not rocket science -- but I confess that until I saw his video I could not believe that bike set ups could be so wrong.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
You are skipping over a 4th item. You keep implying that pros in a race (not a time trial) are always in a peloton. This is deranged.


In response to a post by you above, I responded in the following way (bold added.)

Originally Posted by timtak
I am not implying, but stating quite clearly, that aerodynamics is less important for those riding in group races, where riders often (not always) ride pelotons and sometimes (not never, not always, but far far less) ride in breakaways, than for myself because I am ALWAYS riding in a breakaway of ONE. I am always riding in a time trial.
And then you accuse me of being deranged for saying that they do not always ride in pelotons.

I would like some data though. Looking at this tour with about 140 there were some breakaways in most stages, mainly of a few riders, which means that even in the breakaway they were often riding in an aero line. So they ride solo of maybe 2% or less than 5% of their time? I always ride solo 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
And it isn't "important" that a solo amateur be aerodynamic. This is just a claim you keep making. It doesn't matter if a solo amateur is a bit slower.
It matters to me, to Robie and others who want to ride harder more aggressively. Not Robbie, but maybe they have a belly to lose.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
What "omission"?
Some bike shop attendants fail to mention that the Rolex bikes are not suitable for solo riders, that the customer needs something more like a time trial bike except safer, fails to point the customer in Cobbs direction or to older bikes, or non UCI branded bikes.

This next bit is where you get to the scary, from my point of view, nub of the matter.
Originally Posted by njkayaker
The amateur’s life won’t be much different if they are riding a $3k “cheapy” or a blingy $13k bike. Their job as a dentist isn’t going to change.

No. An amateur paying $12k for a bike is generally just wealthy (or loose with money). They aren't spending all of their time training for races. And it still doesn't if they are a bit slower or not.

$13k bikes are mostly vanity items. Like Rolexes.
This is what I am scared of. Rich dentists, lawyers, bankers, doctors go to bikes shop and say they wants to get fit, lose some weight.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.

Last edited by timtak; 07-24-22 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 07-24-22, 01:18 AM
  #789  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Put in a quarter, spin the knob, get another unhinged aero manifesto.
You're getting a lot of unhingededness from only one quarter.
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Old 07-24-22, 02:21 AM
  #790  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I think that there are many people who want to ride "comfortably" and looking at the scenery, and who have back problems, and whose belly size does not allow them to go low. When I was like that it wasn't so much that going low was "uncomfortable" but that my knees and my belly could not coexist. But as my shape returned to normal, I had this weird parachute style of riding a road bike. It took me a while to realise that I needed to do as Robbie is doing, in order (again in Cobb's words) "for aggressive riding, and it doesn't have to be just racing, but when you are right and you want to ride a little harder."
I do like comfortable positions to ride at a relaxed pace appreciating the scenery. I can ride in such position in my present endurance bike fit for many hours. But I can still be aero if wanted to by simply bending my elbows 90 degrees.

Cycling is my ONLY exercise and my BMI is currently 19.6 (borderline underweight), flat abs, waistline 26", hip line 35" currently in my early forties. I have strong core muscles I suppose since I can pedal out of the saddle continuously for 15 minutes, or a total of 40 minutes in one hour of climbing. My total weekly ride time is only 6.5 to 10 hours. I never race, never enough time and resources to do it but my body build is close to that of specialist pro hill climber.

The comfy position did not make me fat at all.

So I really doubt riding posture has huge influence on getting fat or not. For me it's mostly diet and pedaling style (for the nice waist to hip ratio). I have absolutely no alcohol in my diet. I have no friends in real life so I can't even "drink socially". What a bummer but having zero friends has some advantages (I'll think of one eventually).

Last edited by koala logs; 07-24-22 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 07-24-22, 02:30 AM
  #791  
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Originally Posted by koala logs
I do like comfortable positions to ride at a relaxed pace appreciating the scenery. I can ride in such position in my present endurance bike fit for many hours. But I can still be aero if wanted to by simply bending my elbows 90 degrees.
Perhaps my Felt was a bit too comfortable.

Originally Posted by koala logs
Cycling is my ONLY exercise and my BMI is currently 19.6 (borderline underweight), flat abs, waistline 26", hip line 35" currently in my early forties. I have strong core muscles I suppose since I can pedal out of the saddle continuously for 15 minutes, or a total of 40 minutes in one hour of climbing. My total weekly ride time is only 6.5 to 10 hours. I never race, never enough time and resources to do it but my body build is close to that of specialist pro hill climber.
Well done. I hope you keep it up.

Originally Posted by koala logs
The comfy position did not make me fat at all. So I really doubt riding posture has huge influence on getting fat or not. For me it's mostly diet and pedaling style (for the nice waist to hip ratio). I have absolutely no alcohol in my diet. I have no friends in real life so I can't even "drink socially". What a bummer but having zero friends has some advantages (I'll think of one eventually).
I have no friends, but I drink on my own. Perhaps I would not need to ride so hard if I did not.

Having no friends allows more time for riding.
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Old 07-24-22, 02:49 AM
  #792  
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Originally Posted by timtak
I have no friends, but I drink on my own. Perhaps I would not need to ride so hard if I did not.

Having no friends allows more time for riding.
Yeah, friends who also ride would be nice!
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Old 07-24-22, 06:14 AM
  #793  
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Originally Posted by timtak
This is what I am scared of. Rich dentists, lawyers, bankers, doctors go to bikes shop and say they wants to get fit, lose some weight.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
Don't be scared. Watts are watts. You can ride a bike with a parachute on your back and work just as hard as in aero tucked position. Going a couple mph slower vs faster isn't going to be so boredom inducing that the would be cyclist decides to quit the sport. In fact, it's been said that heavier bikes provide more exercise than lighter bikes.
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Old 07-24-22, 07:38 AM
  #794  
big john
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Originally Posted by timtak
This is what I am scared of. Rich dentists, lawyers, bankers, doctors go to bikes shop and say they wants to get fit, lose some weight.
In stead of telling them, how to go fast and lose weight, get fit and live for a long time, the assistant shows them the brochures with the pros bikes, and tells them to buy a Rolex bike that the assistant thinks (or kids himself) they need. The rich people don't enjoy cycling much and die.
You really have quite an imagination.
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Old 07-24-22, 07:44 AM
  #795  
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equating a rolex to a high end racing bike is weird.

A $3k bike to a $16k bike is like comparing a Corolla to an M5

Yes, they can both get you there.
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Old 07-24-22, 08:01 AM
  #796  
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Originally Posted by big john
You really have quite an imagination.
You have a gift for understatement.
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Old 07-24-22, 08:04 AM
  #797  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
equating a rolex to a high end racing bike is weird.
Yeah. Wearing the latter on your wrist would be awkward.
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Old 07-24-22, 08:12 AM
  #798  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
A $3k bike to a $16k bike is like comparing a Corolla to an M5
Not fair comparison. The M5 will be A LOT faster than a Corolla.

A $16k bike only be marginally faster than $3k bike.

If only $16k superbikes came with a hidden motor and hidden battery OR a lifetime supply of performance-enhancing medications....
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Old 07-24-22, 08:20 AM
  #799  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62

A $3k bike to a $16k bike is like comparing a Corolla to an M5.
No, it's not. There is a law of diminishing returns. At some point a bike can't help you go any faster. You could put Tadej Pogascar on a department store bike and he would still crush most of the riders in the world.
Put any driver in the world in a Corolla and any average driver could smoke them in a drag race with an M5. Maybe a road course, too, depending.
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Old 07-24-22, 08:48 AM
  #800  
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Originally Posted by timtak
It matters to me, to Robie and others who want to ride harder more aggressively. Not Robbie, but maybe they have a belly to lose.
That's different than a blanket claim that "it's more important to amateurs".

Originally Posted by timtak
Originally Posted by timtak
I am not implying, but stating quite clearly, that aerodynamics is less important for those riding in group races, where riders often (not always) ride pelotons and sometimes (not never, not always, but far far less) ride in breakaways, than for myself because I am ALWAYS riding in a breakaway of ONE. I am always riding in a time trial.
And then you accuse me of being deranged for saying that they do not always ride in pelotons.

I would like some data though. Looking at this tour with about 140 there were some breakaways in most stages, mainly of a few riders, which means that even in the breakaway they were often riding in an aero line. So they ride solo of maybe 2% or less than 5% of their time? I always ride solo 100% of the time.
You ignore that they ride solo and keep going back to them riding in pelotons because the issue of them riding solo is inconvenient for you.

It's like arguing that aerodynamics isn't important to them because, most of the time, their bikes are in storage not moving. It doesn't matter what percentage they ride solo.

There is huge amount of time and money and opportunity costs behind in making that "small percentage" as effective as possible. None of that is true for your 100% of the time riding kinda-slowly solo for entertainment. But that's inconvenient for your "argument". So, you just keep ignoring it.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-24-22 at 09:19 AM.
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