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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 08-02-22, 06:12 AM
  #1101  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
You must be talking about me.
I do most of my cycling on my own too. Group rides are nice and all and push me a little bit further, but I'm in that weird position where I'm too advanced for the totally open beginners rides, but not quite up to the serious amateur rides here. So I can either do an easy 20 mile loop or try and survive a challenging 50 mile loop.
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Old 08-02-22, 08:50 AM
  #1102  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Your confidence is …
You could save yourself a lot of time by dispensing with all the long posts:
1) I doubt anyone reads them anymore.

2) They seem to just repeat the same nonsense that nobody agrees with.

3) You obsession / man crush with John Cobb and some dude named Robbie is getting kind of weird and creepy.

4) if you kept your posts shorter, people might think you’re just kind of quirky, instead of a clueless [deleted by censor].
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Old 08-02-22, 09:00 AM
  #1103  
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
4) if you kept your posts shorter, people might think you’re just kind of quirky, instead of a clueless [deleted by censor].
That was my impression of him before this thread. Now? Oy.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:49 AM
  #1104  
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One salient fact about aerodynamics that I haven't seen addressed is how SMALL a factor it is for most amateur riders. The article on the CdA and position that has now been posted at least twice shows it takes an additional 35w to ride on the hoods, vs riding "aero hoods". But that's at 27 mph. Who rides at that speed? Not me!! I took a little trip over to bikecalculator.com, and input my weight(203 lbs), the average weight of my bikes (20 lbs), and a speed of 27 mph (45 kph). How much power do I have to put out to go that fast?

489w! That's nearly twice my FTP.

Now, let's say I get nice and low, go aero hoods, flat back and all. Subtract those 35w. 453w. An improvement, but hardly much. So, what about 18 mph (30 kph)?

168w. I can do that for a long time.

That's on the hoods, though. What about aero hoods, one of the most aerodynamic positions in the article? Well, it says the difference at 18 mph is 10.4w, so 158w. Significant, but not huge. SO, I don't buy that any novice cyclist is out there on the road and feeling discouraged because he can only average 18 mph, and if he could only do aero hoods all the time, he'd go 18.4 mph.
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Old 08-02-22, 09:58 AM
  #1105  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
1) Do they achieve and maintain fitness and their figure on comfort bikes? I know Koala does, but perhaps because Koala goes up hills, dancing like Pantini. I have also been told that some here are into just fitness not slimness. I am narcissistic and or just surrounded by thin Japanese people to whom I compare myself unfavourably, so both are important, the slimness more.
I just want to weigh as little as possible. Borderline underweight. It's easier to pedal standing if light and I really love the technique when climbing. It feels just like running and I also love to run and I pedal standing whenever applicable to keep my running muscles strong.

30 minutes out of the saddle can feel like a 3 hour ride! I just can't do it everyday because it really strains the core muscles and the back. The next day that follows is nothing but rest and the following days are training with only 5 minutes at at time out of the saddle. The cumulative time out of the saddle can still be long with the 5 minute intervals. It's a very effective way to burn calories it seems.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:06 AM
  #1106  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
I just want to weigh as little as possible. Borderline underweight. It's easier to pedal standing if light and I really love the technique when climbing. It feels just like running and I also love to run and I pedal standing whenever applicable to keep my running muscles strong.

30 minutes out of the saddle can feel like a 3 hour ride! I just can't do it everyday because it really strains the core muscles and the back. The next day that follows is nothing but rest and the following days are training with only 5 minutes at at time out of the saddle. The cumulative time out of the saddle can still be long with the 5 minute intervals. It's a very effective way to burn calories it seems.
I don't bike in the winter, and do my cardio during that season on an elliptical machine. I find it's very similar to riding out of the saddle, which I likewise can do for an extended time. It makes sense to me to vary my muscle use.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:15 AM
  #1107  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I don't bike in the winter, and do my cardio during that season on an elliptical machine. I find it's very similar to riding out of the saddle, which I likewise can do for an extended time. It makes sense to me to vary my muscle use.
You're right. I sometimes use the elliptical machine on the gym.

I find it ironic how it seems you can more easily do longer efforts on the elliptical than standing on the bike. It would seem the posture, makes a huge difference in the level of difficulty even if the power output maybe the same. The posture on the elliptical machine is far more comfortable.
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Old 08-02-22, 10:36 AM
  #1108  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
One salient fact about aerodynamics that I haven't seen addressed is how SMALL a factor it is for most amateur riders. The article on the CdA and position that has now been posted at least twice shows it takes an additional 35w to ride on the hoods, vs riding "aero hoods". But that's at 27 mph. Who rides at that speed? Not me!! I took a little trip over to bikecalculator.com, and input my weight(203 lbs), the average weight of my bikes (20 lbs), and a speed of 27 mph (45 kph). How much power do I have to put out to go that fast?

489w! That's nearly twice my FTP.

Now, let's say I get nice and low, go aero hoods, flat back and all. Subtract those 35w. 453w. An improvement, but hardly much. So, what about 18 mph (30 kph)?

168w. I can do that for a long time.

That's on the hoods, though. What about aero hoods, one of the most aerodynamic positions in the article? Well, it says the difference at 18 mph is 10.4w, so 158w. Significant, but not huge. SO, I don't buy that any novice cyclist is out there on the road and feeling discouraged because he can only average 18 mph, and if he could only do aero hoods all the time, he'd go 18.4 mph.
this is all so true - the discussion around every last bit of aero (even big bits of aero!) doesn’t make a huge difference at the speeds most of us cruise. my flat-ground comfy cruising rate is maybe 20mph. i wouldn’t mind going 2 mph faster, but doing so by riding on the drops or aerobars all the time, wearing a skinsuit, an aero bike, deep wheels would be cool but not worth the hassle, discomfort, cost, etc. obviously, if one were competing it would be. that 10% speed on unbroken flats would translate to maybe 3-4% more speed on the overall ride, because hills, downhills, stops and starts, traffic….
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Old 08-02-22, 11:08 AM
  #1109  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
this is all so true - the discussion around every last bit of aero (even big bits of aero!) doesn’t make a huge difference at the speeds most of us cruise. my flat-ground comfy cruising rate is maybe 20mph. i wouldn’t mind going 2 mph faster, but doing so by riding on the drops or aerobars all the time, wearing a skinsuit, an aero bike, deep wheels would be cool but not worth the hassle, discomfort, cost, etc. obviously, if one were competing it would be. that 10% speed on unbroken flats would translate to maybe 3-4% more speed on the overall ride, because hills, downhills, stops and starts, traffic….
... but, but ... have you learnt nothing from this thread? On a CobbTakRob™ bicycle you don't have to make those sacrifices! Just imagine the freedom, the exhilaration: jacknifed, reaching for the ground, a close-up view of every element of the aggregate, the wind sailing freely over your back as you ankle your way past those 21 year-olds out on group training rides!
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Old 08-02-22, 12:08 PM
  #1110  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
this is all so true - the discussion around every last bit of aero (even big bits of aero!) doesn’t make a huge difference at the speeds most of us cruise. my flat-ground comfy cruising rate is maybe 20mph. i wouldn’t mind going 2 mph faster, but doing so by riding on the drops or aerobars all the time, wearing a skinsuit, an aero bike, deep wheels would be cool but not worth the hassle, discomfort, cost, etc. obviously, if one were competing it would be. that 10% speed on unbroken flats would translate to maybe 3-4% more speed on the overall ride, because hills, downhills, stops and starts, traffic….
This is true of one's overall fitness in general. Some people want to look good in their clothes and nothing more. Other have different goals. There are challenges/sacrifices at every level on the scale.
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Old 08-02-22, 12:18 PM
  #1111  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
this is all so true - the discussion around every last bit of aero (even big bits of aero!) doesn’t make a huge difference at the speeds most of us cruise. my flat-ground comfy cruising rate is maybe 20mph. i wouldn’t mind going 2 mph faster, but doing so by riding on the drops or aerobars all the time, wearing a skinsuit, an aero bike, deep wheels would be cool but not worth the hassle, discomfort, cost, etc. obviously, if one were competing it would be. that 10% speed on unbroken flats would translate to maybe 3-4% more speed on the overall ride, because hills, downhills, stops and starts, traffic….
The other thing is, I prefer longer rides, so I'm happy to trade a bit of average speed for the ability to ride 4 or more hours without any discomfort - I mean, apart from tired legs.
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Old 08-02-22, 04:22 PM
  #1112  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
You're right. I sometimes use the elliptical machine on the gym.

I find it ironic how it seems you can more easily do longer efforts on the elliptical than standing on the bike. It would seem the posture, makes a huge difference in the level of difficulty even if the power output maybe the same. The posture on the elliptical machine is far more comfortable.
Using classic touring bars with reasonable bar height slightly above saddle height makes standing more sustainable, but there may also be a comfort and sustainability advantage to the elliptical motion over circular pedaling for a standing bike.

Otto
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Old 08-02-22, 05:34 PM
  #1113  
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Ssss comfort sss comfortable sss.

I am not sure about the watts, but to paraphrase Kate Moss, nothing rides as comfortably as skinny feels.

Not that I am skinny, but I hope to be by the end of the summer, if I am still alive, God willing.

Originally Posted by badger1 View Post
... but, but ... have you learnt nothing from this thread? On a CobbTakRob™ bicycle you don't have to make those sacrifices! Just imagine the freedom, the exhilaration: jacknifed, reaching for the ground, a close-up view of every element of the aggregate, the wind sailing freely over your back as you ankle your way past those 21 year-olds out on group training rides!
Thank you: well summarised. But I think that the 21 year-olds were waiting for me with the plan to leave me for dust, with their pace line. That was three or more years ago when I was still funny biking, and last weekend we went to a water world with sliders and I did squats while waiting in the queue. Now my abductors hurt, and I feel old.

Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
I just want to weigh as little as possible. Borderline underweight. It's easier to pedal standing if light and I really love the technique when climbing. It feels just like running and I also love to run and I pedal standing whenever applicable to keep my running muscles strong.

30 minutes out of the saddle can feel like a 3 hour ride! I just can't do it everyday because it really strains the core muscles and the back. The next day that follows is nothing but rest and the following days are training with only 5 minutes at at time out of the saddle. The cumulative time out of the saddle can still be long with the 5 minute intervals. It's a very effective way to burn calories it seems.
That sounds great and more effective than my cycling. Thank you for sharing.

There are a lot of mountains around me but I tend to stay off them. My excuse is I am scared of either going too fast, or heating my rim brakes to the point of bursting a tyre, on the way down. The Trek came with Kool Stop pads which feel like they are living up to their name. Disks would work too. Excuses.

Herzlos My steering feels okay on all my bikes (though It was slow when the stem was very long) but I may do something about the spike. I am wondering if I will one day want comfort so I generally don't cut my post down to size. I hear the whispers of "comfort" too.

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Old 08-02-22, 09:22 PM
  #1114  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
The other thing is, I prefer longer rides, so I'm happy to trade a bit of average speed for the ability to ride 4 or more hours without any discomfort - I mean, apart from tired legs.
same. i'm pretty happy up to 6-8 hours as long as i take a brief break to stretch out the back every 2 hours or so. unfortunately life rarely permits more than one 4+ hour ride a week.
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Old 08-03-22, 12:10 AM
  #1115  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
Using classic touring bars with reasonable bar height slightly above saddle height makes standing more sustainable, but there may also be a comfort and sustainability advantage to the elliptical motion over circular pedaling for a standing bike.

Otto
You're right on both. I have used an elliptical machine when first training leg strength for out of the saddle. It is definitely easier. First, you didn't have to sway the machine as it's securely fixed on the floor. That is until I managed to find a good pedaling technique that suits me well, then it's about as easy if not for the back posture.

You must have heard the hunched down posture on a road bike gives more power. That may be true but NOT out of the saddle. The default running posture is still the most powerful posture out of the saddle and the least likely to hurt your back at high power.
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Old 08-03-22, 12:27 AM
  #1116  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
That sounds great and more effective than my cycling. Thank you for sharing.

There are a lot of mountains around me but I tend to stay off them. My excuse is I am scared of either going too fast, or heating my rim brakes to the point of bursting a tyre, on the way down. The Trek came with Kool Stop pads which feel like they are living up to their name. Disks would work too. Excuses.
I have zero experience with rim brakes on the mountains. I'm already on disc brakes by the time I'm riding on mountains. But there's plenty members here who seems not having any issues with rim brakes on mountains unless it rains.

There's a risk with pedaling out of the saddle for long periods even if you break it in short intervals. If your legs didn't hurt, your back might and I typically end up with two days of recovery if my back did hurt.

Still the most effective, least risky way I found to rapidly lose weight is do very long rides at light intensity effort. Even just doing one 5 hour ride per week even if the rides are much shorter the other days is terrific at fat burning.
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Old 08-03-22, 04:01 AM
  #1117  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Not only is this wayyyyyyyy off topic, that is the stupidest setup I have ever seen. Looks great if your goal is castrating yourself.

Just stop already.
Ever see those picture threads here with weird, questionable, cobbled, or whatever bikes in them, and bikes like those pop up? I've never wondered why they were set up like those, and now, in a few of his post, I do- we do, a reason as crazy as the setup, explained against our will.
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Old 08-03-22, 04:01 AM
  #1118  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
There are a lot of mountains around me but I tend to stay off them. My excuse is I am scared of either going too fast, or heating my rim brakes to the point of bursting a tyre, on the way down. The Trek came with Kool Stop pads which feel like they are living up to their name. Disks would work too. Excuses.
I thought you loved going as fast as possible?

Herzlos My steering feels okay on all my bikes (though It was slow when the stem was very long) but I may do something about the spike. I am wondering if I will one day want comfort so I generally don't cut my post down to size. I hear the whispers of "comfort" too.
I think we'd all feel better if you got rid of the spike. Even if you trim the steerer tube down to size, you can always invert your stem if you want more comfort, or fit a normal one, or treat yourself to a new fork.
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Old 08-03-22, 04:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
you seem to actually care about people getting healthy and riding bikes, so i’ll just say it one more time. the position you’re advocating is NOT comfortable or practical for most aspiring, recreational or even slightly serious cyclists. you are doing FAR more harm than good advocating this **** than the minimal effect a bit of drag has on the enjoyment of someone taking up cycling. there is a reason bikes for beginners or long distance riding are MORE upright. not less. if your bizarre advice spread to the real world, it would prevent the majority of people from even trying to ride a bike.
No, no... his setup is best for new riders- forces them to face their fear; the front brake.
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Old 08-03-22, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
You really have quite an imagination.
Because he has no friends. It's frowned on to just walk up to random people babbling about tire kissing bike fit, in Japan, and he drinks alone. That's just my theory, but here we are; a lonely lush telling us his manefesto on bicycle fit, carbless carb diets, and how riding upright bicycles is the leading cause of death.
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Old 08-03-22, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Bedlam? no no no.....

People go to bike shops to buy a road bike. Road bikes are lighter (which makes surprisingly little difference), and have a little less rolling resistance (which also makes surprisingly little difference, if you pump up tires) but their major advantage is in the rider position, especially torso lowering. Road bikes are, if they are to be faster, bikes which incorporate torso lowering. Aerodynamic drag of the riders body is about 60% the resistance that we are trying to overcome. It is difficult to get our legs out of the wind (unless we ride a recumbent, which are faster still than roadbikes), so dropping the torso is by far the biggest advantage of the traditional road bike. Bending elbows to get forearms out of the wind, and using narrower bars help but only a little.

In the past twenty years the pros and the bikes that bike shops like to sell, and our egos like to buy, that mimic the pros ride have become more like mountain bikes, with a more upright less aerodynamic riding position. This may be due to the fact perhaps that there are fewer breakaways these days in the pro peloton - which enormously reduces the effect of aerodynamics.The change in bicycle style may also be partly due to the type of bikes that bike shops can sell to overweight people.

Pros generally ride very highly, too highly, aerodynamic bikes (time trial bikes) when they are riding on their own. The features that time trial bikes have to allow solo riding pros to go fast, such as two sets of bars, very narrow bar spacing, and brakes separate from gear shifting make them unsuitable for most amateurs riding on roads with cars. Amateurs ride solo, but unfortunately it is almost impossible for them to mimic the pros' solo bikes.

As far as I know the pros do not change their bike when they intend to be part of a breakaway. Even in breakaways the pros tend to use an aero line where they take it in turns to go at the front. Quite amazingly to me in the recent national championships in the UK, Marc Cavendish seemed to be the only one of the four (?) in the lead breakaway that seemed to be concentrating on aerodynamics, partly by using a bike smaller that would ordinarily be offered to someone of his height at bike shop (he has in the past described his bike as a kids bike).

Amateurs are not given enough advice about the enormous effect of aerodynamics but are instead pointed towards the road bikes that the pros ride using the logic that as pros whose earnings depend on speed choose these bikes, these must be the fastest. This logic also promotes the sale of branded, sponsoring bikes which are considerably more expensive than unbranded bikes that might do the job just as well. But this advice is incorrect because the pros bikes are increasingly unaerodymic due to the increased dominance of the peloton.

The comfortable unaerodynamic bikes may allow more people to take up road bike riding, but for some people, (me at least) they prevent people from enjoying it. They are based on the bikes used by those riding in a group (which is a bike like riding behind a truck, or with a gale force tailwind) so for the lone rider, riding a comfortable bike is like dragging a parachute. It is like going to a racket shop and being offered a tennis racket to play badminton. The tennis racket has advantages (such as it is strong) and the Pro-road bike has advantages (such as it may be very light) but the tennis racket is not made for playing badminton and the Pro-road-bike is not made for solo riding.

As you can imagine, people equipped with devices unsuited to the recreation that they are taking up are more likely to give it up, less likely to really enjoy it, less likely to do it with vigour, and use calories and be exhilarated. This (as many other changes in our society) has negative impacts upon health and longevity.



I have become, via Nietsche, Shinto and Buddhism, a Christian in my old age, or I am tending that way. Christianity seems to be now to be really scientific in some ways at least, so I wonder if in fact everyone does die. But there is a road bike related part.

All over the world when people engage in religious activities they bow their heads and look down (Christian, Shinto and Buddhist prayer), in supplication, and prostration (Islam, Tibetan Buddhism) and get into traditional (but not recent) road bike position. I am unable to give the reason but I think that Dali does in his picture below. Please note that the apostles are in road bike position, that Jesus is pointing to himself, and to a torso floating in the air above. Then ride your bike long and low.


The apostles in road bike position
The laughter from reading this post is killing me faster than my slow, upright, non aero beach cruiser.
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Old 08-03-22, 06:47 AM
  #1122  
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Originally Posted by mschwett View Post
this is all so true - the discussion around every last bit of aero (even big bits of aero!) doesn’t make a huge difference at the speeds most of us cruise. my flat-ground comfy cruising rate is maybe 20mph. i wouldn’t mind going 2 mph faster, but doing so by riding on the drops or aerobars all the time, wearing a skinsuit, an aero bike, deep wheels would be cool but not worth the hassle, discomfort, cost, etc. obviously, if one were competing it would be. that 10% speed on unbroken flats would translate to maybe 3-4% more speed on the overall ride, because hills, downhills, stops and starts, traffic….
Compare the weight weenies forum.

Originally Posted by Herzlos View Post
I thought you loved going as fast as possible?
I like propelling myself to go fast.

Originally Posted by Herzlos View Post
I think we'd all feel better if you got rid of the spike. Even if you trim the steerer tube down to size, you can always invert your stem if you want more comfort, or fit a normal one, or treat yourself to a new fork.
Who is "we"?

Originally Posted by Jax Rhapsody View Post
Ever see those picture threads here with weird, questionable, cobbled, or whatever bikes in them, and bikes like those pop up? I've never wondered why they were set up like those, and now, in a few of his post, I do- we do, a reason as crazy as the setup, explained against our will.
I am still unsure of the "crazy set up" that you refer to. My timtaked "funny bike" was fast, like the hour record breaking bike of Moser. My current bikes are pretty conventional.

Cut the comfort,

Tim
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Old 08-03-22, 07:00 AM
  #1123  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Compare the weight weenies forum.
Notice who isn't hijacking a thread about non-competitive cyclists in General Cycling?

I'll give you a hint--it starts with weight and it ends in weenies.

And if we're going to make the comparison, you're the aero-weenie equivalent of a reckless drillium advocate.

What the hell is the weight weenies forum?
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Old 08-03-22, 07:02 AM
  #1124  
Jax Rhapsody
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Compare the weight weenies forum.


I like propelling myself to go fast.


Who is "we"?



I am still unsure of the "crazy set up" that you refer to. My timtaked "funny bike" was fast, like the hour record breaking bike of Moser. My current bikes are pretty conventional.

Cut the comfort,

Tim
The crazy setup(no need for quotes, because we all think so) is that Fuji of yours that takes the expression; "nose to the grindstone" in an almost literal sense. It's fast because your locked in to sprinting position. I'm wondering if this "riding style" you keep talking about, is even real, or you just watched Yawamushi Pedal like it was a documentary.
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Old 08-03-22, 07:49 AM
  #1125  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
There's a risk with pedaling out of the saddle for long periods even if you break it in short intervals. If your legs didn't hurt, your back might and I typically end up with two days of recovery if my back did hurt.
A year ago, I had enough saddle discomfort that I spent a week riding out of the saddle, with three rides of between 60 to 90 minutes. Both bikes were single speed and running touring bars at the time.

The bar height and reach meant that standing up was sustainable. But single speed is not suited to standing only because you can’t pedal as fast standing as you can seated. Also, it started to get hard on my feet by the end of the ride.

Otto
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