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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 08-04-22, 07:19 AM
  #1151  
koala logs
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
In the context of the thread the UCI time trial bike is highly (I would say) unsuitable to amateurs who are not pushing a competitive edge. I still believe that the UCI time trial bike is ridiculous, or highly inadvisable. The UCI time trial bike set up is highly inadvisable because while amateurs want go to fast, speed is not everything. There is a balance between as you say, a number of factors such as
aerodynamics
being or not being so constrained as to not be able to push the pedals
My saddle position on my road bike is setup in exactly the same forward position as a TT bike. The saddle is adjusted all the way forward in the rails using a zero setback seatpost in a relatively steep seatube angle frame. I only need to get my forearms horizontal on over the handlebar while holding the hoods and I'll be in a very good approximation of traditional TT posture, except my forearms will be much farther apart. Didn't find problems with it except for forward visibility.

In addition, my saddle is tilted down -5 degrees. And I can still push the pedal forward. I know so because if I didn't, my butt would be sliding forward and my hands would go numb pushing myself back on the seat all the time. But as it is, I'm quite comfortable with that setup because I do push the pedals forward.

In fact, I have read the same thing from pro fitter Steve Hoggs. He mentioned that for riders who drop their heels, they can adjust their saddle in more forward position (or KOPS instead of balance) to actually compensate for the push forward motion, else, the rider might actually slide backwards as they pedal, causing them to involuntarily pull on the handlebar. If you drop heel, especially at the top of the stroke, you will inevitably push the pedal forward.

And if you have trained your glutes well enough, they'll be engaged just as well in the TT saddle position. I have big and strong glutes even though my saddle is in TT position. The TT saddle position is actually quite friendly to your lower back / core muscles and in most cases will improve your power output because of more open hip angle and therefore, help increase speed.

Pros often sit in the TT saddle position on their road bike simply by sitting closer to the nose to maximize power and avoid hurting their back. They don't do it all the time but they do spend time in that position quite often during a race.

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Old 08-04-22, 07:33 AM
  #1152  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
A year ago, I had enough saddle discomfort that I spent a week riding out of the saddle, with three rides of between 60 to 90 minutes. Both bikes were single speed and running touring bars at the time.

The bar height and reach meant that standing up was sustainable. But single speed is not suited to standing only because you can’t pedal as fast standing as you can seated. Also, it started to get hard on my feet by the end of the ride.

Otto
If you have to stand a lot, you need the soles on your shoes to be hard and avoid / remove insoles and avoid thick socks. The extra pressure of standing means you'll lose more energy if the space between your foot and the pedal is "squishier" and may even cause foot discomfort.

Saddle discomfort during very long rides is one of my strong motivations to train standing to pedal. I used to rarely get off the saddle during a 7 hour no stop ride and consequently, my butt starts to hurt.

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Old 08-04-22, 07:37 AM
  #1153  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
The most interesting thing to me about your post is the stop sign thing because I think it illustrates the whole problem with saying "x machine is the best for losing weight." What will motivate you to your highest calorie burn is a psychological, not mechanical question. he bike that's going to get me to maximize my effort is going to be the one I most enjoy putting such an effort into riding. That's an individual taste thing, not an objective "more (less) aero means bigger effort" formula.

BTW, I do the acceleration thing on a relatively sparsely populated MUP I ride on. I'll slow way down or even stop if I can't pass cleanly and safely, but then speed up rapidly after passing them.
Originally Posted by timtak View Post
I very much agree. Nonetheless I think we are quite similar in many ways, and that things that one person finds motivating are likely to be motivating for a considerable number of others.
My comment wasn't aimed at you, and I don't really care whether or not you agree with it (and it's certainly not consistent with your first postings on this thread). I think it's rather rude of you to jump into this conversation when I've repeatedly complained about your hijacking of this thread. I find your vilification of comfort factors stupidly absurd, and completely discouraging to a large number of potential cyclists if taken seriously. To be clear, I am entirely sick of you making this thread about you and your stupid idea, and I would appreciate it if you would stop responding to my posts when they are not directly aimed at you or explicitly about what you've been posting. I want to change the subject, and I really don't have any desire for you to subvert my comments into yet another vehicle for posting your weird bicycle-evangelicism-dietary hybrid crap. ,

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Old 08-04-22, 07:40 AM
  #1154  
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Originally Posted by ofajen View Post
Also, a bike made just for standing but with circular crank motion, like the Elliptigo SUB, will have shorter cranks, like say 150mm. That gives a reasonable “step size” of about 300mm or 12 in. Normal 170-175 mm cranks give too tall of a step size to be optimal for stand up only.

Otto
Good to point that out.

I actually found it easier for either seated and standing efforts to use shorter cranks. In fact, I find I can sustain it longer climbing standing on the pedals on a BMX bike with short cranks than a road bike even if the road bike had easier gears. Additionally, the much wider handlebar of the BMX bike made it much easier to stay balanced and sway the bike while standing.

Perhaps it's my technique because legends like Marco Pantani prefer to use long cranks when climbing out of the saddle.
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Old 08-04-22, 07:52 AM
  #1155  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
If you have to stand a lot, you need the soles on your shoes to be hard and avoid / remove insoles and avoid thick socks. The extra pressure of standing means you'll lose more energy if the space between your foot and the pedal is "squishier" and may even cause foot discomfort.

Saddle discomfort during very long rides is one of my strong motivations to train standing to pedal. I used to rarely get off the saddle during a 7 hour no stop ride and consequently, my butt starts to hurt.

I stand a lot, have bad feet which require orthotics, and I don't find much of anything you wrote to be true for me. I suspect there's a lot of variables in feet and body size, etc., that are going to affect the best fit of footwear to the task of riding out of the saddle for any individual rider.
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Old 08-04-22, 08:22 AM
  #1156  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
My saddle position on my road bike is setup in exactly the same forward position as a TT bike. The saddle is adjusted all the way forward in the rails using a zero setback seatpost in a relatively steep seatube angle frame. I only need to get my forearms horizontal on over the handlebar while holding the hoods and I'll be in a very good approximation of traditional TT posture, except my forearms will be much farther apart. Didn't find problems with it except for forward visibility.

In addition, my saddle is tilted down -5 degrees. And I can still push the pedal forward. I know so because if I didn't, my butt would be sliding forward and my hands would go numb pushing myself back on the seat all the time. But as it is, I'm quite comfortable with that setup because I do push the pedals forward.

In fact, I have read the same thing from pro fitter Steve Hoggs. He mentioned that for riders who drop their heels, they can adjust their saddle in more forward position (or KOPS instead of balance) to actually compensate for the push forward motion, else, the rider might actually slide backwards as they pedal, causing them to involuntarily pull on the handlebar. If you drop heel, especially at the top of the stroke, you will inevitably push the pedal forward.

And if you have trained your glutes well enough, they'll be engaged just as well in the TT saddle position. I have big and strong glutes even though my saddle is in TT position. The TT saddle position is actually quite friendly to your lower back / core muscles and in most cases will improve your power output because of more open hip angle and therefore, help increase speed.

Pros often sit in the TT saddle position on their road bike simply by sitting closer to the nose to maximize power and avoid hurting their back. They don't do it all the time but they do spend time in that position quite often during a race.
And they've been doing it so long that the colloquial term for it refers back to when stretched leather saddles were all the rage - "On The Rivet", referring to the big rivet on the nose of the saddle.
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Old 08-04-22, 08:52 AM
  #1157  
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In my town there are dozens of cyclists riding around on high-end and new racing style bicycles, many of them wearing racing style clothes who are slow casual riders. Why did they dump thousands into their bike and clothing? For the same reason they bought luxury automobiles and SUVs, daily-wear designer clothing and other trendy and fashionable consumer goods, and that is they need it as either jewelry for their egos in a flawed attempt to give empty shallow lives meaning. It is not their fault, it is just a feature of the society they have spent their lives in, which has brainwashed them since birth to believe that anything can be bought, and even that there is no other way to get anything except with dollars, and if it is not gotten with dollars then it is not a solution worth considering.
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Old 08-04-22, 09:07 AM
  #1158  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
In my town there are dozens of cyclists riding around on high-end and new racing style bicycles, many of them wearing racing style clothes who are slow casual riders. Why did they dump thousands into their bike and clothing? For the same reason they bought luxury automobiles and SUVs, daily-wear designer clothing and other trendy and fashionable consumer goods, and that is they need it as either jewelry for their egos in a flawed attempt to give empty shallow lives meaning. It is not their fault, it is just a feature of the society they have spent their lives in, which has brainwashed them since birth to believe that anything can be bought, and even that there is no other way to get anything except with dollars, and if it is not gotten with dollars then it is not a solution worth considering.

OK, mom.

Like all would-be gurus, your mind-reading skills appear to be exceptional.
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Old 08-04-22, 09:12 AM
  #1159  
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Originally Posted by hazetguy View Post
You forgot "******" between "or" and "satire."
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Old 08-04-22, 09:36 AM
  #1160  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
You forgot "******" between "or" and "satire."

It's dumpster vodka guy, so if he's satirizing, he's doing it in the form of maintaining a character arc.

Following this guy's posts, it appears that we are supposed to listen to his philosophy of life because he dares to crash a lot and he's had at least one STD. Also, he doesn't bathe.

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Old 08-04-22, 10:37 AM
  #1161  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
In my town there are dozens of cyclists riding around on high-end and new racing style bicycles, many of them wearing racing style clothes who are slow casual riders. Why did they dump thousands into their bike and clothing? For the same reason they bought luxury automobiles and SUVs, daily-wear designer clothing and other trendy and fashionable consumer goods, and that is they need it as either jewelry for their egos in a flawed attempt to give empty shallow lives meaning. It is not their fault, it is just a feature of the society they have spent their lives in, which has brainwashed them since birth to believe that anything can be bought, and even that there is no other way to get anything except with dollars, and if it is not gotten with dollars then it is not a solution worth considering.
Then the opposite must be true--you ride crappy bikes because you have no ego. Stop psychoanalyzing and judging peoples' choice of bikes and have a shot and a bath.
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Old 08-04-22, 10:58 AM
  #1162  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
It's dumpster vodka guy, so if he's satirizing, he's doing it in the form of maintaining a character arc.

Following this guy's posts, it appears that we are supposed to listen to his philosophy of life because he dares to crash a lot and he's had at least one STD. Also, he doesn't bathe.
So, basically a more erudite Larry Sellerz.
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Old 08-04-22, 11:01 AM
  #1163  
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It's interesting. Hanging out on BF during the "old days" left me wondering what to believe and what not to believe. These days, it's far easier to know what to believe and what not to believe.

Sad comment on the quality of a some of the content..
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Old 08-04-22, 11:03 AM
  #1164  
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Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Then the opposite must be true--you ride crappy bikes because you have no ego. Stop psychoanalyzing and judging peoples' choice of bikes and have a shot and a bath.

It's the old snob vs, slob debate, this time dressed up in class-struggle kit.

Both sides attack the values of the other as a way of signaling their own virtues.
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Old 08-04-22, 11:03 AM
  #1165  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
It's interesting. Hanging out on BF during the "old days" left me wondering what to believe and what not to believe. These days, it's far easier to know what to believe and what not to believe.

Sad comment on the quality of a some of the content..
One could probably do very well simply by doing the opposite of whatever a handful of frequent posters suggest.
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Old 08-04-22, 11:22 AM
  #1166  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
So, basically a more erudite Larry Sellerz.

I think the erudition of the two is approximately equal.
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Old 08-04-22, 01:37 PM
  #1167  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
So, basically a more erudite Larry Sellerz.
Yep, the smartest hammer in the bag.
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Old 08-04-22, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
to the amateur speed is not everything.
Holy crap, man. This is what we have been telling you for the past 20 pages. And it is why your setup is ridiculous for most of them. And why so many of them are going with Endurance geometry and loving it.

So what the hell are you still going on about?
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Old 08-04-22, 01:59 PM
  #1169  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Holy crap, man. This is what we have been telling you for the past 20 pages. And it is why your setup is ridiculous for most of them. And why so many of them are going with Endurance geometry and loving it.

So what the hell are you still going on about?
I've got $10 that says this will be met with his longest post yet.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:33 PM
  #1170  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
In my town there are dozens of cyclists riding around on high-end and new racing style bicycles, many of them wearing racing style clothes who are slow casual riders. Why did they dump thousands into their bike and clothing? For the same reason they bought luxury automobiles and SUVs, daily-wear designer clothing and other trendy and fashionable consumer goods, and that is they need it as either jewelry for their egos in a flawed attempt to give empty shallow lives meaning. It is not their fault, it is just a feature of the society they have spent their lives in, which has brainwashed them since birth to believe that anything can be bought, and even that there is no other way to get anything except with dollars, and if it is not gotten with dollars then it is not a solution worth considering.
You clearly have nothing to contribute to this forum. Why are you continuing to beat your dead horse from your pathetic soapbox? Give it a rest, NOBODY wants to read about your bitterness.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:34 PM
  #1171  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Holy crap, man. This is what we have been telling you for the past 20 pages. And it is why your setup is ridiculous for most of them. And why so many of them are going with Endurance geometry and loving it.

So what the hell are you still going on about?
Are they loving endurance geometry or did they just not get a good fit and endurance geometry is more forgiving for poor fit?

I ask because I actually moved from endurance to aero geometry and didn't really notice a difference, if anything, I preferred the aero bike. I then had a fit and now am even more comfortable with a much, much larger drop.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Are they loving endurance geometry or did they just not get a good fit and endurance geometry is more forgiving for poor fit?
I doubt its all one or the other.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:42 PM
  #1173  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Are they loving endurance geometry or did they just not get a good fit and endurance geometry is more forgiving for poor fit?

I ask because I actually moved from endurance to aero geometry and didn't really notice a difference, if anything, I preferred the aero bike. I then had a fit and now am even more comfortable with a much, much larger drop.
Depends on the individual. If I was selecting a new bike I would go for the "endurance" fit, at least as far as the saddle to bar drop. I ran 100mm drop years ago but now I only want 25 to 50 at the most. Back injuries, a career of working on cars, and old age have made me less flexible.

One of my bikes has a deep drop bar so I can get low but don't have to because the bar top is high.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:44 PM
  #1174  
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I doubt its all one or the other.
I'm sure it's also true that some new riders will want to start with the bar high and eventually go to a lower set-up.
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Old 08-04-22, 02:46 PM
  #1175  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
You clearly have nothing to contribute to this forum. Why are you continuing to beat your dead horse from your pathetic soapbox? Give it a rest, NOBODY wants to read about your bitterness.
Hey, that takes talent! You gotta lean way over to make the hits land with any authority.
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