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A lot of the recent "innovation" is a bad bargain for anyone not pushing a competitiv

Old 08-04-22, 09:03 PM
  #1201  
Mojo31
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Well, you know, the design hasn't changed in 120 years.

(They stopped making Midgets in '79)
Yeah, I was thinking about when I was first shopping for a car after high school. That was in the 70s, but my mind was thinking 80s. Benility is screwing me up. 😜
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Old 08-04-22, 09:17 PM
  #1202  
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.
Not only is your logic bad, but your facts are wrong -- the Road Cycling section has twice as many posts as the Vintage section.
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Old 08-04-22, 10:03 PM
  #1203  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
Oh, honey, no! That's not it at all!

Anything that makes riding easier, or more efficient, or more comfortable, or more aerodynamic, or just plain faster works for most everyone, whether they're strong or not, in shape or not, large or small, old or young. More gears enable one to climb easier, and sometimes faster, while better brakes enable faster descents - you can brake later and go faster between turns. To be sure the BASIC layout of the Safety Bicycle hasn't changed, but you might say the keyboard hasn't changed since the QWERTY keyboard was invented in 1873, but in both cases it grossly understates the ergonomic improvements. So much more is known about biomechanics than was known in in the 1880s

Regarding vintage bikes - dude. Seriously. I own, and ride, and love 5 vintage bikes. I love 'em, they're great fun. I flog them as hard as I can - no garage queens for me. But if I want to do a long ride, I'll grab one of my modern bikes. They're just better at it. So, I actually have experience - ONGOING experience - with old and new bikes, and new is better. Doesn't mean my head isn't turned by a beautiful older bike. It just means in every practical way, the new bikes are superior.
But you spent money. This is obviously very wrong and means there are terrible flaws in your character.
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Old 08-04-22, 10:13 PM
  #1204  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
It boggles the mind why anyone would post something so ridiculous in a public forum. It can't be real, can it?
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Old 08-04-22, 10:20 PM
  #1205  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
My saddle position on my road bike is set-up in exactly the same forward position as a TT bike.
Until two or three years ago, I had a forward offset seatpost, saddle far forward on the rails and sloping down, bars far forward and down, with a set-up approximating to the bull horns of a TT bike and as you say, since we have evolved to run, and it results in a sort of running motion I was fine with it.

I sometimes say my glutes got weak, but to be specific it was the right side because, just before I took up cycling (jogging having become too painful) I tried swimming, kicked too hard, and gave myself a spinal hernia. That gave me something called "glute amnesia" (controversial) or at least "glute avoidance." When Carbonfibre boy recommended moving my seat down and back, and a more conventional (at that time) pedalling style, about ten years ago, I tried it, and responded (at least in my head) "nah, I'll leave pedalling with my butt muscles to cyclists," because using my glutes caused slight prickly sciatic pain. I think if it were not for that I could have continued using my funny bike forever.

That said, I don't think it impossible that rearward offset would make a comeback if time trials were held on road bikes. There should be data out there because amateur clubs are holding "Merkx Time Trials" as I found out just now.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
What you keep calling “UCI Time Trail” riding positions is really just “Time trial” riding position. You are dragging UCI into this in a failed attempt to confuse the issue.
I think some people want to ride fast, without competition, against the clock, and without drafting. These are all facets of a time trial, shared with "UCI time trials," and I feel okay with calling that style a time trial. You appear to want want to limit use of the phrase "time trial" to the UCI sanctioned races using UCI time-trial bikes.

If I were selling bikes, I might want to do that too, so that people coming into my shop would think that the UCI has all the bases covered, and UCI bikes can cater to any amateurs needs. But I don't think this is the truth. The current UCI time trials are in my language, a subsection of time trials, ridden on bikes that would be very dangerous on open roads.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Yours is NOT a time trial position.
There you go again :-) This reminds me of 1984's Newspeak, where certain words (like "revolution") are erased from the dictionary : "You can't use the phrase 'time trial' unless it is to refer to a current UCI time trial!" Watch.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
NOBODY doing time trails on a competitive level with much success shoves their saddle all the way back like yours.
Very true. I am an amateur rider, not pushing a competitive edge, but enjoying going fast, against the clock, riding a time trial.

Eddy Merckx also rode in time trials with rear offset. What is good enough for Eddy....

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Further, you say that the proper Time Trial positioning is inappropriate for amateurs do to visibility and handling reasons (which I agree with)
We agree!

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
but then go on to recommend something just as awkward that you yourself needed to have special glasses made for to see. There is NOTHING safer or more user friendly about your suggested setup as opposed to a proper Time Trail saddle position. Its just slower.
This is where we disagree. The skis on time trial bikes would kill people on the roads. I used to use them on my road bike. I made them shorter (like Cinelli Spinachi) but eventually I ditched them. I want my hands on the brakes. When I am in a Cobb style position, I said earlier in the thread that I can see 100M ahead but in fact if I am not lazy (or in other words look down) I can see till the horizon. Contact lenses would work too, but I am proud of my glasses. I am slower than I would be on a UCI trial bike but safer. I am less safe than I would be on a group ride UCI road bike but faster for going more aero. The UCI does not have the amateur riders bases covered.

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
And since you whole premise in this thread is that amateurs want to go as fast as possible, it is a silly recommendation.
Which relates to this in response to my writing "speed is not everything" (or words to that effect).
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
Holy crap, man. This is what we have been telling you for the past 20 pages. And it is why your setup is ridiculous for most of them. And why so many of them are going with Endurance geometry and loving it.So what the hell are you still going on about?
I have been going on about the joys of greater solo speed in the context of and in comparison to UCI road bikes. Did you think I was recommending ebikes, motorbikes, or driving a car?

I am pleased to see that there is now a category of amateur races called "Merkx Time Trials". YES! This is what I think bike shops should be supporting and campaigning for so that they can say "we have bikes for everybody".

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
My comment wasn't aimed at you, and I don't really care whether or not you agree with it (and it's certainly not consistent with your first postings on this thread). I think it's rather rude of you to jump into this conversation when I've repeatedly complained about your hijacking of this thread. I find your vilification of comfort factors stupidly absurd, and completely discouraging to a large number of potential cyclists if taken seriously. To be clear, I am entirely sick of you making this thread about you and your stupid idea, and I would appreciate it if you would stop responding to my posts when they are not directly aimed at you or explicitly about what you've been posting. I want to change the subject, and I really don't have any desire for you to subvert my comments into yet another vehicle for posting your weird bicycle-evangelicism-dietary hybrid crap. ,
I don't want to upset you but, as earlier in the thread, I will write what I want (so long as it is not hate speech or otherwise in breach of the forum rules). Please use your scroll bar.


Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
It's dumpster vodka guy, so if he's satirizing, he's doing it in the form of maintaining a character arc. Following this guy's posts, it appears that we are supposed to listen to his philosophy of life because he dares to crash a lot and he's had at least one STD. Also, he doesn't bathe.
Originally Posted by smd4 View Post
Then the opposite must be true--you ride crappy bikes because you have no ego. Stop psychoanalyzing and judging peoples' choice of bikes and have a shot and a bath.
Do you read what you write?


Originally Posted by big john View Post
NOBODY wants to read about your bitterness.
I want to read beng1's posts.

But that said...Caveat emptor and all, but I have been, or am, the ego driven, attempt-to-purchase-fitness shallow, cosplay-loving guy. Still, I wish I were told the options. I wish that there are road bike time trials and that the bike shop that I visited had sold me a Trek 5200 rather than the Trek F7.3 FX ("because it has lots of spokes" -- to support your corpulence) that rots in my garden.
@tempocyclist prefers his new full carbon Di2 equipped Canyon Aerod to his 1980's bikes but how does it compare with the Trek -- the imho pinnacle of bicycle evolution!?
I like tempo's blog
https://tempocyclist.com/2022/07/06/...-and-real-men/
https://tempocyclist.com/2021/01/28/...-and-progress/

I had a look at an Emonda and the innovative way that the wires go through the spacers and forks looks like a nightmare.

Did Tomato win the $10?

Tim

Last edited by timtak; 08-04-22 at 10:41 PM.
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Old 08-04-22, 10:27 PM
  #1206  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Until two or three years ago ...
TL;DR

Did Tomato win the $10?
It was a sucker bet -- no one wins when you post.
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Old 08-04-22, 11:07 PM
  #1207  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
@tempocyclist prefers his new full carbon Di2 equipped Canyon Aerod to his 1980's bikes but how does it compare with the Trek -- the imho pinnacle of bicycle evolution!?
I like tempo's blog
https://tempocyclist.com/2022/07/06/...-and-real-men/
https://tempocyclist.com/2021/01/28/...-and-progress/
Thanks. 🙂

The Trek 5200 is pretty close in performance to the Aeroad, but there's definitely a penalty. That said, the 5200 has had a lot of "recent innovation" thrown at it to get it as close!

2002 vs 2022 bike - https://tempocyclist.com/2020/09/13/...eed-aero-bike/

I am "pushing competitively" though so I guess this 49 page thread is not really aimed at my use case.
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Old 08-05-22, 12:47 AM
  #1208  
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
If you have to stand a lot, you need the soles on your shoes to be hard and avoid / remove insoles and avoid thick socks. The extra pressure of standing means you'll lose more energy if the space between your foot and the pedal is "squishier" and may even cause foot discomfort.

Saddle discomfort during very long rides is one of my strong motivations to train standing to pedal. I used to rarely get off the saddle during a 7 hour no stop ride and consequently, my butt starts to hurt.
I once had a bike with no saddle or post(I don't remember why), and it got old after a while of riding, each time I took the bike out, plus extended out of saddle can hurt your back.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:11 AM
  #1209  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Until two or three years ago, I had a forward offset seatpost, saddle far forward on the rails and sloping down, bars far forward and down, with a set-up approximating to the bull horns of a TT bike and as you say, since we have evolved to run, and it results in a sort of running motion I was fine with it.

I sometimes say my glutes got weak, but to be specific it was the right side because, just before I took up cycling (jogging having become too painful) I tried swimming, kicked too hard, and gave myself a spinal hernia. That gave me something called "glute amnesia" (controversial) or at least "glute avoidance." When Carbonfibre boy recommended moving my seat down and back, and a more conventional (at that time) pedalling style, about ten years ago, I tried it, and responded (at least in my head) "nah, I'll leave pedalling with my butt muscles to cyclists," because using my glutes caused slight prickly sciatic pain. I think if it were not for that I could have continued using my funny bike forever.

That said, I don't think it impossible that rearward offset would make a comeback if time trials were held on road bikes. There should be data out there because amateur clubs are holding "Merkx Time Trials" as I found out just now.
If you're having problems using your glutes on the bike, that's ok. But if you still can and need to exercise your glutes there are quite convenient ways to do it like walking up a flight of stairs or just buy a cheap mini stepper and use it for 30 minutes a day.

But I doubt rear offset saddle would appear in road race bikes even if they ban TT bikes. Many pro racers actually prefer having forward slammed saddle on their road bikes similar to TT saddle position. That won't change even if they have to hunch down lower on their road bikes. In fact, the lower you get over the handlebar, the more you need to move forward to keep an open hip angle.

Personally, I like the forward slammed saddle. It used to have more setback saddle, then I lost a bit of weight, mainly on my torso and gained a bit of muscles mass on my legs. One day, re-visited my bike fit and my "balance" saddle position has moved quite a bit and the saddle now needs to be slammed fully forward to be "balanced" on the saddle while pedaling at tempo. My new position is now ahead even that of KOPS. I really liked it. It's a huge improvement over my previous saddle position. Comfort is largely the same since I remain balanced. But I became faster with the slammed forward saddle. High intensity efforts felt easier and I suppose, if everything feels easier then riding definitely feels more comfortable too.

I'm not going back to the setback saddle position again unless I'll be riding a cruiser bike where I can sit quite upright.
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Old 08-05-22, 01:22 AM
  #1210  
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Originally Posted by Jax Rhapsody View Post
I once had a bike with no saddle or post(I don't remember why), and it got old after a while of riding, each time I took the bike out, plus extended out of saddle can hurt your back.
I have the same problem. It seems the only way to avoid it is to stand as upright as possible or break the effort down to much shorter durations.

The Pantani stance is quite back crunching. Although he did break it down few minutes at a time, taking much shorter "breaks" in between pedaling seated. That makes it much more manageable without compromising power and very less likely to hurt the back.
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Old 08-05-22, 04:26 AM
  #1211  
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In 2013 I spent nearly 2 weeks at the Italian Cycling Center. During one ride we encountered a club ride coming in the opposite direction. The rider at the back of the group was on a MTB that had no front fork.

Our host told us that a local resident used to climb Monte Grappa that way.
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Old 08-05-22, 05:08 AM
  #1212  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post


I don't want to upset you but, as earlier in the thread, I will write what I want (so long as it is not hate speech or otherwise in breach of the forum rules). Please use your scroll bar.


Tim
Well, you did actually violate forum rules when you inserted religious content into this forum, and you're gratuitously off-topic on this thread. If you quote me, you can expect that I will react to say yet again that I resent quite seriously the crap you have pulled in this thread. No one is stopping you from starting your own thread, but you have apparently become obsessed with this particular one. There's interesting people posting on this thread, they were having an interesting conversation, you posted your weird ideas once, which I have no problem with, but then when you were uniformly refuted, you've posted the same crap over and over again, each time putting the same junk in wordier form. I'm extremely annoyed that you can't figure out how to start a new thread if you want to continue this entirely circular conversation.

You can't be on topic on this thread if you're discussing tt bikes. This is a thread about non-competitive cycling. Time Trial is by definition, a competitive activity (that's what the "trial" is). Take your stupid bike to its own thread. Frankly, I think you're not doing that because you're a coward.
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Old 08-05-22, 05:53 AM
  #1213  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Well, you did actually violate forum rules when you inserted religious content into this forum, and you're gratuitously off-topic on this thread.
That is true. I will lay off the religion, or start a new thread for it.

Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
If you quote me, you can expect that I will react to say yet again that I resent quite seriously the crap you have pulled in this thread. No one is stopping you from starting your own thread, but you have apparently become obsessed with this particular one. There's interesting people posting on this thread, they were having an interesting conversation, you posted your weird ideas once, which I have no problem with, but then when you were uniformly refuted, you've posted the same crap over and over again, each time putting the same junk in wordier form. I'm extremely annoyed that you can't figure out how to start a new thread if you want to continue this entirely circular conversation. You can't be on topic on this thread if you're discussing tt bikes. This is a thread about non-competitive cycling. Time Trial is by definition, a competitive activity (that's what the "trial" is). Take your stupid bike to its own thread. Frankly, I think you're not doing that because you're a coward.
Do the UCI have thought police, I wonder.

Time trial is by the UCI's definition a competitive activity that is, I would say on the edge, and therefore not on the topic of this thread except by comparison. On the other hand, when I call my riding as (like a) "time trial", I am a referring to attempting to go fast on my own, without drafting, racing the clock, and comparing times with myself, and occasionally perhaps pursuing a Strava a KOM or bragging about my times (both definitely competitive), but which if I did even so, I don't think that would be "pushing a competitive edge."

I could call what I do something else, but I use the phrase "time trial" because, additionally, I used to set up my bike in ways similar to UCI time trial bikes. I used to set my saddle forwards, bars forwards and low, and even use skis. These days I get into an aero tuck such as was, and is used in "Merkx Time Trials". And, at the same time, I cared a lot less about forward vision, and less (but far more than a UCI time trial bike) about manoeuvrability.

Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
If you're having problems using your glutes on the bike, that's ok. But if you still can and need to exercise your glutes there are quite convenient ways to do it like walking up a flight of stairs or just buy a cheap mini stepper and use it for 30 minutes a day.
Yes. Yes.
I think I got so proud of the speed I was going on my forward offset long and low stem funny Frankenbike that I even stopped using the stairs at work. I stopped jogging too. If I get confident in my glutes I will put a Return of Frankenbike together.

Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
But I doubt rear offset saddle would appear in road race bikes even if they ban TT bikes. Many pro racers actually prefer having forward slammed saddle on their road bikes similar to TT saddle position. That won't change even if they have to hunch down lower on their road bikes. In fact, the lower you get over the handlebar, the more you need to move forward to keep an open hip angle.

Personally, I like the forward slammed saddle. It used to have more setback saddle, then I lost a bit of weight, mainly on my torso and gained a bit of muscles mass on my legs. One day, re-visited my bike fit and my "balance" saddle position has moved quite a bit and the saddle now needs to be slammed fully forward to be "balanced" on the saddle while pedaling at tempo. My new position is now ahead even that of KOPS. I really liked it. It's a huge improvement over my previous saddle position. Comfort is largely the same since I remain balanced. But I became faster with the slammed forward saddle. High intensity efforts felt easier and I suppose, if everything feels easier then riding definitely feels more comfortable too. I'm not going back to the setback saddle position again unless I'll be riding a cruiser bike where I can sit quite upright.
Maybe I overdid it. I was not balanced but quite firmly planted on my hands and forearms. I definitely want to do it again.

Lanced Road Bike - Long Stem 150mm by Timothy Takemoto, on Flickr]

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Old 08-05-22, 06:30 AM
  #1214  
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This is got to be the most endurance I've seen from a poster within the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" phase.
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Old 08-05-22, 06:58 AM
  #1215  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
This is got to be the most endurance I've seen from a poster within the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull****" phase.

I notice he isn't taking up my challenge for him to start a new thread. I'm not sure whether he's more afraid that no one will click on it or that they will.
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Old 08-05-22, 07:04 AM
  #1216  
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Originally Posted by genejockey View Post
It drips with reverse snob condescension. We don't actually ENJOY our bikes with their lighter frames, better brakes, improved ergonomics, and more useful gearing. It's just that we've been TOLD we like them, and we're too stupid to know any different.

TBH, I think he's even a bit more extreme than that. He's using this stuff as a pennant to indicate which side of the class war you are on.
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Old 08-05-22, 07:04 AM
  #1217  
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Seriously, timtak , its time to find yourself a new strawman.

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Old 08-05-22, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by beng1 View Post
The most popular section of BikeForums is the vintage section by far, which means a lot more people agree with me that new stuff is not necessary than agree with you.

Who said that new stuff is "necessary"? What makes your assertions stupid is the notion that people only like new stuff because they are brainwashed. I prefer older bikes myself, but that's because the older machines suit my style of riding better. Where you and I differ is where you make value judgments on people whose style of riding is better suited to newer bikes and your complete skepticism that those people might actually know what they're talking about.

You've been doing this "baddest old fart on the forums" bit for a few weeks now, and it's laughable.
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Old 08-05-22, 07:47 AM
  #1219  
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
Do the UCI have thought police, I wonder.
]
I defy you to explain how my suggestion you start a new thread because TT is by definition of the word "trial" outside the scope of this thread could justify this insinuation that I am a member of any kind of "thought police". This is a thread on non-competition, why did you even bring UCI into this?

Go ahead, start a thread on this topic-I'll even title it for you "My Ideas on Bike Position, Fitness, Weight Control and Consciousness", No one's been stopping you.
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Old 08-05-22, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by timtak View Post
I want to read beng1's posts.
I stand corrected.
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Old 08-05-22, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post

You've been doing this "baddest old fart on the forums" bit for a few weeks now, and it's laughable.
I thought I was the baddest old fart? It's slipping away.
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Old 08-05-22, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by tomato coupe View Post
Not only is your logic bad, but your facts are wrong -- the Road Cycling section has twice as many posts as the Vintage section.
Hell. P&R is not that far behind C&V.

And none of this takes into account when particular forums were created.
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Old 08-05-22, 08:12 AM
  #1223  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
You've been doing this "baddest old fart on the forums" bit for a few weeks now, and it's laughable.
Have you been following his Slow-Roll thread? He's admitted to trying to sucker people with his alleged "satire."
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Old 08-05-22, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
Who said that new stuff is "necessary"? What makes your assertions stupid is the notion that people only like new stuff because they are brainwashed. I prefer older bikes myself, but that's because the older machines suit my style of riding better. Where you and I differ is where you make value judgments on people whose style of riding is better suited to newer bikes and your complete skepticism that those people might actually know what they're talking about.

You've been doing this "baddest old fart on the forums" bit for a few weeks now, and it's laughable.
On our monthly C&V rides, most of the riders have both C&V and modern bikes, so the idea that the C&V forum being popular means all those folks DON'T ride modern bikes is nonsense.

I'd bet most of the posters on that forum have more modern bikes in addition to their C&V bikes, and most of us have more than one C&V bike, and a tendency to acquire more, and fix them up, so we're constantly asking questions, posting pictures, bragging about how cheap we found this bike for etc.
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Old 08-05-22, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by koala logs View Post
The general rule of setting saddle fore-aft position is the most forward position you can attain where you can still unload your hands while pedaling - the balance setup.

Comfort is important obviously and probably the most important but the hip angle is also critically important if maintaining tempo pace or more for long periods.

Link below shows the actual bikes ridden by TdF racers showing the bike fit they use for the races. Many of the saddles are shown slammed all the way forward and some of the bikes have relatively steep seat tube angle, getting the rider's hip into TT position with a more open hip angle. A more open hip angle will always result to more power simply due to our millions of years of adaptation to running. More importantly, it helps save the back from pain and avoid possible back and pelvic injuries when doing high intensity intervals on the bike.

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/in-depth/9...de-france-2021

And if you have the right build, (more weight towards your legs) this saddle fore-aft position is actually comfortable like this bike ridden by Pogacar. The only bikes with huge setback, often with the BB shell designed with a forward offset are ridden fully upright, the vast majority of them. They often fall into the category of "comfort bikes" and many cruisers and Dutch bikes feature such BB shell offset. That's because you need to have the hip angle open. Increase the setback then you need to sit more upright and if you want to hunch forward aggressively in an aero position, then you need to seat more forward. Just to keep the hip angle open.


Here we see Warren Barguil's aero bike he sometimes use in the mountain stages as well. Notice the steep seat tube and also the zero zetback seatpost with the saddle slammed forward on the rails. The racers aren't really torturing themselves with this fit. If you have light torso, muscular legs then this is actually comfortable and fast at the same time!
To be fair, the Canyon Aeroad's STA is 73.5 degrees, which is not super steep. But I'll give you the zero offset seatpost and slammed forward saddle.
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