Hubbub on the Campy high vs normal flange hubs
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,450
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1820 Post(s)
Liked 3,330 Times
in
1,564 Posts
With some high flange hubs, they might just be bike show bling, but it's hard to not love it!
Some Curtis Odom hubs on a Cherubim frame, at the 2015 NAHBS.
Steve in Peoria
Some Curtis Odom hubs on a Cherubim frame, at the 2015 NAHBS.
Steve in Peoria
Likes For steelbikeguy:
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,642
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3431 Post(s)
Liked 2,826 Times
in
1,723 Posts
It may be a show bike, but why do I see that rear hub exploding at the first impulse of a power stroke?
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Liked 545 Times
in
190 Posts
For some reason, the Peugeot team used high flange hubs for their time trial wheels all the way into the mid 1980s. ( obviously, the photo is an example of a decade earlier) Thevenet seems to be putting them to a test here….
#29
WingsToWheels
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: France
Posts: 227
Bikes: Italian, French, British
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 83 Post(s)
Liked 65 Times
in
40 Posts
JohnJohn-
Differing spoke counts were not unheard of. On racers, 32F and 36R due to rear weight bias. For touring bikes, 40R and 36F because, in period, tourists typically used rear panniers which heavily biased weight to the rear. Time trial bikes often used 28F and 28R to minimize weight along with really light weight tubular rims and tires.
Differing spoke counts were not unheard of. On racers, 32F and 36R due to rear weight bias. For touring bikes, 40R and 36F because, in period, tourists typically used rear panniers which heavily biased weight to the rear. Time trial bikes often used 28F and 28R to minimize weight along with really light weight tubular rims and tires.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
Jim was all about low flange for touring I think.
Likes For merziac:
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,450
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1820 Post(s)
Liked 3,330 Times
in
1,564 Posts
but he has been known to tour with high flange too....
(these are not my scans, and I apologize for not keeping notes on where I got them)
The standards for touring bikes must have been fairly lax back then??
Or is that just a result of being younger?
At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.
Steve in Peoria
(my complete respect to Mr. Merz for touring with such ludicrous gearing!)
(these are not my scans, and I apologize for not keeping notes on where I got them)
The standards for touring bikes must have been fairly lax back then??
Or is that just a result of being younger?
At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.
Steve in Peoria
(my complete respect to Mr. Merz for touring with such ludicrous gearing!)
Likes For steelbikeguy:
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
@steelbikeguy
Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.
Unless you were him.
Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.
Unless you were him.
Likes For merziac:
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
And I think the Pro illustrated some of Jim's approach to what he was doing, going outside the lines in an effort to figure out what did, didn't, could, couldn't, would, wouldn't work, why and how he could get to where he wanted to be with it.
#34
Garage tetris expert
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 912
Bikes: A few. Ok, a lot
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked 689 Times
in
327 Posts
The standards for touring bikes must have been fairly lax back then??
Or is that just a result of being younger?
At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.
Or is that just a result of being younger?
At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.
The extremely low gears with which many touring bikes are sold seem to be useful mainly as a substitute for physical conditioning.
Personally, my knees start to disintegrate at the mere thought of a 54-tooth chainring on a
Likes For panzerwagon:
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,450
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1820 Post(s)
Liked 3,330 Times
in
1,564 Posts
Steve in Peoria
Likes For steelbikeguy:
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 14,101
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4494 Post(s)
Liked 6,300 Times
in
3,633 Posts
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3,405
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 863 Post(s)
Liked 2,226 Times
in
1,249 Posts
@steelbikeguy
Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.
Unless you were him.
Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.
Unless you were him.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,323
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3449 Post(s)
Liked 2,800 Times
in
1,974 Posts
Likes For repechage:
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Berkeley CA
Posts: 2,534
Bikes: 1981 Ron Cooper, 1974 Cinelli Speciale Corsa, 2000 Gary Fisher Sugar 1, 1986 Miyata 710, 1982 Raleigh "International"
Mentioned: 97 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 926 Post(s)
Liked 1,285 Times
in
484 Posts
Fascinating article! In 1976, four years after he wrote that, I toured through the Alps on my all-Campy Raleigh International with my girlfriend on her all-Campy Atala Professional, both with sewups. My gearing wasn't as bad as Jim's though...we had 52-45 and 14-28. Still, a ridiculously high gearset considering that we were fully loaded (no ultralight gear in those days!) and riding in the mountains. The sewups were definitely a mistake and I spent many hours on the side of the road and sitting in camp repairing them. At that point I had heard of dedicated "touring bikes" with really low gearing, but I don't think that I had ever seen one.
Likes For davester:
#40
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 29,725
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Mentioned: 191 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2912 Post(s)
Liked 2,836 Times
in
1,460 Posts
And there was the late comer in the HF arena, the short lived, thanks trek Electra Ticino “Sheriff Star hubs. Unfortunately these only came in track and shipmano cassette but they are fabulous hubs.
They came in this cute little lunchbox.
They came in this cute little lunchbox.
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
Likes For Bianchigirll:
#41
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 29,725
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Mentioned: 191 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2912 Post(s)
Liked 2,836 Times
in
1,460 Posts
For a long time Campagnolo’s “new” stuff was just old stuff with nicer finish or titanium tidbits. Even the vaunted Super Record and Corse Record RDs were basically the same design in use since the ‘60s.
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
#42
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,640
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
Liked 1,678 Times
in
926 Posts
I "liked" your post, not because I liked that your stuff cracked- but more like if there were a like reaction.
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Likes For The Golden Boy:
#43
Extraordinary Magnitude
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Waukesha WI
Posts: 13,640
Bikes: 1978 Trek TX700; 1978/79 Trek 736; 1984 Specialized Stumpjumper Sport; 1984 Schwinn Voyageur SP; 1985 Trek 620; 1985 Trek 720; 1986 Trek 400 Elance; 1987 Schwinn High Sierra; 1990 Miyata 1000LT
Mentioned: 84 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2597 Post(s)
Liked 1,678 Times
in
926 Posts
as noted... "fashion".
I'm assuming that someone had the idea that big flanges offered some advantage... possibly that the larger flange would result in less additional tension in the spokes in the rear wheel when the rider was really applying a lot of torque to the pedals. That might be reasonable for a track hub, where some riders really put out serious peak power. Not likely to matter for most road riding.
My reason for high flange: more shiny aluminum to glitter in the sunlight.
I'm assuming that someone had the idea that big flanges offered some advantage... possibly that the larger flange would result in less additional tension in the spokes in the rear wheel when the rider was really applying a lot of torque to the pedals. That might be reasonable for a track hub, where some riders really put out serious peak power. Not likely to matter for most road riding.
My reason for high flange: more shiny aluminum to glitter in the sunlight.
High flange hubs look "old school" to me, the oval cutouts mean "Richard Nixon is still in office." While that is cool for a bike of that vintage- I can imagine it looking obsolete or "old and in the way" for someone looking for a more modern look. I like that look- but I'm also not beholden to what racers deem cool- I'm with steelbikeguy and they mean "more shiney." I don't so much care about the rear- it's mostly obscured by the the freewheel/cassette- the front is where the money is.
When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell- high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular.
IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
__________________
*Recipient of the 2006 Time Magazine "Person Of The Year" Award*
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Commence to jigglin’ huh?!?!
"But hey, always love to hear from opinionated amateurs." -says some guy to Mr. Marshall.
Likes For The Golden Boy:
#44
Banned.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: PAZ
Posts: 12,394
Mentioned: 255 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2588 Post(s)
Liked 4,823 Times
in
1,709 Posts
Bet they cost a pretty penny - and worth every one of them
DD
Likes For Drillium Dude:
#45
Bianchi Goddess
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Shady Pines Retirement Fort Wayne, In
Posts: 29,725
Bikes: Too many to list here check my signature.
Mentioned: 191 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2912 Post(s)
Liked 2,836 Times
in
1,460 Posts
I totally agree with you- It seems there's always some sort of inconsequential reason people need to have to justify or attempt to justify what they like or want or what they don't like or don't understand. Perhaps there's a real benefit to low flange vs high flange... but the reality is that it won't make a difference to 99% of people.
High flange hubs look "old school" to me, the oval cutouts mean "Richard Nixon is still in office." While that is cool for a bike of that vintage- I can imagine it looking obsolete or "old and in the way" for someone looking for a more modern look. I like that look- but I'm also not beholden to what racers deem cool- I'm with steelbikeguy and they mean "more shiney." I don't so much care about the rear- it's mostly obscured by the the freewheel/cassette- the front is where the money is.
Oh how I wanted to buy those from you when you had them up for sale... I *still* think of those hubs as a missed opportunity.
When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell- high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular.
IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
High flange hubs look "old school" to me, the oval cutouts mean "Richard Nixon is still in office." While that is cool for a bike of that vintage- I can imagine it looking obsolete or "old and in the way" for someone looking for a more modern look. I like that look- but I'm also not beholden to what racers deem cool- I'm with steelbikeguy and they mean "more shiney." I don't so much care about the rear- it's mostly obscured by the the freewheel/cassette- the front is where the money is.
Oh how I wanted to buy those from you when you had them up for sale... I *still* think of those hubs as a missed opportunity.
When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell- high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular.
IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
__________________
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
“One morning you wake up, the girl is gone, the bikes are gone, all that's left behind is a pair of old tires and a tube of tubular glue, all squeezed out"
Sugar "Kane" Kowalczyk
Likes For Bianchigirll:
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 4,674
Bikes: 82 Medici, 2011 Richard Sachs, 2011 Milwaukee Road
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1924 Post(s)
Liked 1,954 Times
in
1,086 Posts
The cracking of HF hub flanges has been mentioned a couple times in this thread. I have little experience with HF hubs but have broken one vintage LF Record rear hub while cornering during a descent. I am in the process choosing a 6 speed wheel set for some long rides (a SR series) and want to avoid any mishaps -- Hence this question for those that have broken more than one hub flange: Which flanges break more often from just riding along (not crashing)? HF or LF?
__________________
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
I don't do: disks, tubeless, e-shifting, or bead head nymphs.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 2,890
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1105 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,311 Times
in
775 Posts
Given that, the probability of such a failure depends on the material strength, the section under stress, and the stress applied. Assuming equal strength and stress the increased distance between spoke holes on a HF hub may be a significant factor.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Liked 545 Times
in
190 Posts
Speaking of high flanges….Here is a photo of a high flange Maxi Car hub. As you can see, the freewheel side has keyed spoke holes. You can replace a spoke without removing the freewheel. The real bonus is that the keyholes are sized so that the drive side spokes are the same length as the non drive side….or for that matter, the front spokes. One size fits all…I received this wheel with my Meral camping bike. It had been rebuilt incorrectly so that the valve was not between the parallel spokes. I ended up re-lacing a few times to get it right as my normal method was not possible with the keyed spoke holes.
Last edited by El Chaba; 09-18-22 at 06:48 PM.
Likes For El Chaba:
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 580
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 187 Post(s)
Liked 545 Times
in
190 Posts
The cracking of HF hub flanges has been mentioned a couple times in this thread. I have little experience with HF hubs but have broken one vintage LF Record rear hub while cornering during a descent. I am in the process choosing a 6 speed wheel set for some long rides (a SR series) and want to avoid any mishaps -- Hence this question for those that have broken more than one hub flange: Which flanges break more often from just riding along (not crashing)? HF or LF?
Just as a data point, most (not all) of the quality hubs that I have seen with cracked flanges have been rebuilt at some point in their lifespan with a different spoke pattern. You can see it in the marking on the flanges. So, I think that is a risk factor. Overtensioning is another risk factor. After Jobst Brandt wrote “The Bicycle Wheel” , everybody who read it started building wheels with WAY more tension. I understand the theory, but there are practical reasons to build a wheel with adequate, tight and sensible tension as opposed to some theoretical ideal.
#50
feros ferio
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,765
Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1384 Post(s)
Liked 1,294 Times
in
819 Posts
I have broken one hub flange: a late 1970s (I think) Shimano high flange front. I noticed the crack across three of the spoke holes before anything catastrophic occurred.
Aesthetically, I think high flange hubs look most appropriate on bikes with fancy lugwork and centerpull brakes, but I do not consistently follow my own advice because of parts availability and general Scots cheapness. I have ridden many high-flange and low-flange front and rear hubs over the years, some cross-3, some cross-4, and I even did some brief experimenting with radial front, but I never felt any difference arising flange spoke circle diameter. I have pretty much standardized on cross-3 for every wheel I build or rebuild, with torque/drive spokes heads-outward on the rear (that's a whole 'nother discussion in itself ). I do think my newest road bike, the 1982 Bianchi, would look weird with high flange hubs.
Original equipment matched 1982 Campione d'Italia specs. Frame date is late 1981. "Charcoal" color not found in catalog listing.
Aesthetically, I think high flange hubs look most appropriate on bikes with fancy lugwork and centerpull brakes, but I do not consistently follow my own advice because of parts availability and general Scots cheapness. I have ridden many high-flange and low-flange front and rear hubs over the years, some cross-3, some cross-4, and I even did some brief experimenting with radial front, but I never felt any difference arising flange spoke circle diameter. I have pretty much standardized on cross-3 for every wheel I build or rebuild, with torque/drive spokes heads-outward on the rear (that's a whole 'nother discussion in itself ). I do think my newest road bike, the 1982 Bianchi, would look weird with high flange hubs.
Original equipment matched 1982 Campione d'Italia specs. Frame date is late 1981. "Charcoal" color not found in catalog listing.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069