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Hubbub on the Campy high vs normal flange hubs

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Hubbub on the Campy high vs normal flange hubs

Old 09-15-22, 01:16 PM
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With some high flange hubs, they might just be bike show bling, but it's hard to not love it!
Some Curtis Odom hubs on a Cherubim frame, at the 2015 NAHBS.





Steve in Peoria
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Old 09-15-22, 01:32 PM
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It may be a show bike, but why do I see that rear hub exploding at the first impulse of a power stroke?
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Old 09-15-22, 01:50 PM
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For some reason, the Peugeot team used high flange hubs for their time trial wheels all the way into the mid 1980s. ( obviously, the photo is an example of a decade earlier) Thevenet seems to be putting them to a test here….

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Old 09-15-22, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim
JohnJohn-

Differing spoke counts were not unheard of. On racers, 32F and 36R due to rear weight bias. For touring bikes, 40R and 36F because, in period, tourists typically used rear panniers which heavily biased weight to the rear. Time trial bikes often used 28F and 28R to minimize weight along with really light weight tubular rims and tires.
interesting, thank you for the info
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Old 09-15-22, 04:23 PM
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Jim was all about low flange for touring I think.


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Old 09-15-22, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Jim was all about low flange for touring I think.
but he has been known to tour with high flange too....





(these are not my scans, and I apologize for not keeping notes on where I got them)

The standards for touring bikes must have been fairly lax back then??
Or is that just a result of being younger?

At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.

Steve in Peoria
(my complete respect to Mr. Merz for touring with such ludicrous gearing!)
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Old 09-15-22, 05:41 PM
  #32  
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@steelbikeguy

Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.

Unless you were him.
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Old 09-15-22, 06:01 PM
  #33  
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And I think the Pro illustrated some of Jim's approach to what he was doing, going outside the lines in an effort to figure out what did, didn't, could, couldn't, would, wouldn't work, why and how he could get to where he wanted to be with it.
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Old 09-15-22, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
The standards for touring bikes must have been fairly lax back then??
Or is that just a result of being younger?

At this same point in time, Americans were touring with Herse demontable bikes with proper touring gearing, so there was some knowledge of what proper gearing was. I imagine that this info wasn't widespread, though.
Oh, he was aware... says so right in the article:

The extremely low gears with which many touring bikes are sold seem to be useful mainly as a substitute for physical conditioning.


Personally, my knees start to disintegrate at the mere thought of a 54-tooth chainring on a loaded bike.
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Old 09-15-22, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by panzerwagon
Oh, he was aware... says so right in the article:



Personally, my knees start to disintegrate at the mere thought of a 54-tooth chainring on a loaded bike.
The fact that he looked at the bike destined for touring, saw that 52 tooth ring, and then thought "it needs to be a 54 tooth"... I'm fairly certain that you couldn't find anyone else who's done that.

Steve in Peoria
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Old 09-15-22, 09:11 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
The fact that he looked at the bike destined for touring, saw that 52 tooth ring, and then thought "it needs to be a 54 tooth"... I'm fairly certain that you couldn't find anyone else who's done that.

Steve in Peoria
That's actually a long list with him.
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Old 09-16-22, 07:10 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by merziac
@steelbikeguy

Yep and lets keep in mind that was early days, a Raleigh Pro was not likely a common choice for touring.

Unless you were him.
yea, and he rides a nice tall one too! I’ve never met Jim but he must be fairly tall. I think that Pro is the same size as mine.
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Old 09-16-22, 07:29 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by merziac
Jim was all about low flange for touring I think.


I like the Pogliaghi track tandem in the background with the fork bracing.
back when the Concours was on a proper lawn.
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Old 09-16-22, 03:48 PM
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Fascinating article! In 1976, four years after he wrote that, I toured through the Alps on my all-Campy Raleigh International with my girlfriend on her all-Campy Atala Professional, both with sewups. My gearing wasn't as bad as Jim's though...we had 52-45 and 14-28. Still, a ridiculously high gearset considering that we were fully loaded (no ultralight gear in those days!) and riding in the mountains. The sewups were definitely a mistake and I spent many hours on the side of the road and sitting in camp repairing them. At that point I had heard of dedicated "touring bikes" with really low gearing, but I don't think that I had ever seen one.
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Old 09-17-22, 08:24 AM
  #40  
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And there was the late comer in the HF arena, the short lived, thanks trek Electra Ticino “Sheriff Star hubs. Unfortunately these only came in track and shipmano cassette but they are fabulous hubs.




They came in this cute little lunchbox.
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Old 09-17-22, 08:27 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by smd4
For a long time Campy introduced new groups/parts, but continued to sell the old ones.
For a long time Campagnolo’s “new” stuff was just old stuff with nicer finish or titanium tidbits. Even the vaunted Super Record and Corse Record RDs were basically the same design in use since the ‘60s.
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Old 09-17-22, 11:53 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
Then this happened during the first couple/three miles of a ride in the very next day:
DD
I "liked" your post, not because I liked that your stuff cracked- but more like if there were a like reaction.
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Old 09-17-22, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
as noted... "fashion".
I'm assuming that someone had the idea that big flanges offered some advantage... possibly that the larger flange would result in less additional tension in the spokes in the rear wheel when the rider was really applying a lot of torque to the pedals. That might be reasonable for a track hub, where some riders really put out serious peak power. Not likely to matter for most road riding.

My reason for high flange: more shiny aluminum to glitter in the sunlight.
I totally agree with you- It seems there's always some sort of inconsequential reason people need to have to justify or attempt to justify what they like or want or what they don't like or don't understand. Perhaps there's a real benefit to low flange vs high flange... but the reality is that it won't make a difference to 99% of people.

High flange hubs look "old school" to me, the oval cutouts mean "Richard Nixon is still in office." While that is cool for a bike of that vintage- I can imagine it looking obsolete or "old and in the way" for someone looking for a more modern look. I like that look- but I'm also not beholden to what racers deem cool- I'm with steelbikeguy and they mean "more shiney." I don't so much care about the rear- it's mostly obscured by the the freewheel/cassette- the front is where the money is.
Originally Posted by Bianchigirll
And there was the late comer in the HF arena, the short lived, thanks trek Electra Ticino “Sheriff Star hubs. Unfortunately these only came in track and shipmano cassette but they are fabulous hubs.




They came in this cute little lunchbox.
Oh how I wanted to buy those from you when you had them up for sale... I *still* think of those hubs as a missed opportunity.


When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell- high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular.

IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
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Old 09-17-22, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell - high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular:


You're not kidding, that version looks awesome. I note those are some pretty beefy flanges, so the cracking issues of vintage HFs are likely negated with the additional material.

Bet they cost a pretty penny - and worth every one of them

DD
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Old 09-17-22, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by The Golden Boy
I totally agree with you- It seems there's always some sort of inconsequential reason people need to have to justify or attempt to justify what they like or want or what they don't like or don't understand. Perhaps there's a real benefit to low flange vs high flange... but the reality is that it won't make a difference to 99% of people.

High flange hubs look "old school" to me, the oval cutouts mean "Richard Nixon is still in office." While that is cool for a bike of that vintage- I can imagine it looking obsolete or "old and in the way" for someone looking for a more modern look. I like that look- but I'm also not beholden to what racers deem cool- I'm with steelbikeguy and they mean "more shiney." I don't so much care about the rear- it's mostly obscured by the the freewheel/cassette- the front is where the money is.


Oh how I wanted to buy those from you when you had them up for sale... I *still* think of those hubs as a missed opportunity.


When I was collecting things to build to rebuild my 1985 Trek 720- Phil Wood did a hub for Rivendell- high flange with oval cutouts... and they look effin' spectacular.

IMG_0079 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr
Oh how I didn’t want to sell them. And worst of all now I need a set of hubs!
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Old 09-18-22, 10:09 AM
  #46  
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The cracking of HF hub flanges has been mentioned a couple times in this thread. I have little experience with HF hubs but have broken one vintage LF Record rear hub while cornering during a descent. I am in the process choosing a 6 speed wheel set for some long rides (a SR series) and want to avoid any mishaps -- Hence this question for those that have broken more than one hub flange: Which flanges break more often from just riding along (not crashing)? HF or LF?
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Old 09-18-22, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Classtime
Hence this question for those that have broken more than one hub flange: Which flanges break more often from just riding along (not crashing)? HF or LF?
I suspect that the N of your sample (even were it to include all broken flanges) will be too small for meaningful analysis; the plural of anecdote is anecdote, not data.

Given that, the probability of such a failure depends on the material strength, the section under stress, and the stress applied. Assuming equal strength and stress the increased distance between spoke holes on a HF hub may be a significant factor.
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Old 09-18-22, 12:42 PM
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Speaking of high flanges….Here is a photo of a high flange Maxi Car hub. As you can see, the freewheel side has keyed spoke holes. You can replace a spoke without removing the freewheel. The real bonus is that the keyholes are sized so that the drive side spokes are the same length as the non drive side….or for that matter, the front spokes. One size fits all…I received this wheel with my Meral camping bike. It had been rebuilt incorrectly so that the valve was not between the parallel spokes. I ended up re-lacing a few times to get it right as my normal method was not possible with the keyed spoke holes.

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Old 09-18-22, 05:31 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Classtime
The cracking of HF hub flanges has been mentioned a couple times in this thread. I have little experience with HF hubs but have broken one vintage LF Record rear hub while cornering during a descent. I am in the process choosing a 6 speed wheel set for some long rides (a SR series) and want to avoid any mishaps -- Hence this question for those that have broken more than one hub flange: Which flanges break more often from just riding along (not crashing)? HF or LF?

Just as a data point, most (not all) of the quality hubs that I have seen with cracked flanges have been rebuilt at some point in their lifespan with a different spoke pattern. You can see it in the marking on the flanges. So, I think that is a risk factor. Overtensioning is another risk factor. After Jobst Brandt wrote “The Bicycle Wheel” , everybody who read it started building wheels with WAY more tension. I understand the theory, but there are practical reasons to build a wheel with adequate, tight and sensible tension as opposed to some theoretical ideal.
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Old 09-18-22, 05:56 PM
  #50  
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I have broken one hub flange: a late 1970s (I think) Shimano high flange front. I noticed the crack across three of the spoke holes before anything catastrophic occurred.

Aesthetically, I think high flange hubs look most appropriate on bikes with fancy lugwork and centerpull brakes, but I do not consistently follow my own advice because of parts availability and general Scots cheapness. I have ridden many high-flange and low-flange front and rear hubs over the years, some cross-3, some cross-4, and I even did some brief experimenting with radial front, but I never felt any difference arising flange spoke circle diameter. I have pretty much standardized on cross-3 for every wheel I build or rebuild, with torque/drive spokes heads-outward on the rear (that's a whole 'nother discussion in itself ). I do think my newest road bike, the 1982 Bianchi, would look weird with high flange hubs.

Original equipment matched 1982 Campione d'Italia specs. Frame date is late 1981. "Charcoal" color not found in catalog listing.
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