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Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

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Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

Old 11-18-21, 07:55 PM
  #1  
Amelio 
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Dream Build: SRAM Force Etap or Shimano Dura Ace Di2

If you had a choice and cost wasn’t a concern, which groupset would you choose? For a C$10,000 bike.

SRAM Force Etap 12 speed

or

Shimano Dura Ace Di2 11 Speed


and why?

Thanks for your input!
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Old 11-18-21, 08:09 PM
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GlennR
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Red... it's lighter.
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Old 11-18-21, 08:26 PM
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$10,000 Canadian .... that's about six dollars US, right?

I have no idea what the conversion factor is .... so just kidding.

I would wait and get Dura-Ace DI2 12-speed. If I were spending a Really big chunk of money (well, not compared to a car or a house, but for a bike) and I was seriously going for a "dream build:" why would I want to rush into a build and get less than all I could get?

I figure I would rather wait a season for a bike I might have for a few decades (should I live so long) than get the bike a year sooner and listen to people describe how much better they like 12 compared to their old 11-speed set-ups.

It depends on what cassettes Shimano comes out with, but for me the utility of more sequential steps and still a wide useable range coupled with programable shifting ..... so I could set it sequential on one or both rings .....

But I am old and not as impatient as I was when younger. I know for some younger folks, saying "Just wait a year longer" sounds beyond insane.
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Old 11-19-21, 05:28 AM
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Why are you comparing SRAM Force with DuraAce Di2? SRAM Red vs DuraAce Di2 would be a more like-for-like comparison if cost wasn't a concern.
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Old 11-19-21, 05:47 AM
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I have SRAM Red AXS. My hand like the shape of the brake lever. Wireless is very easy to setup. My system is a bit of a franken build. I think the rear derailleur is ugly. It seems to shift faster than my 11S etap. The blip box and blips work for me due to some hand/arm disability


The Shimano 12S Dura Ace is not yet available and it is questionable whether one could get a grouppo before late Spring IMO. One drawback if you have rim brakes is the wiring complexity for that setup. A big advantage is battery life. If I were going for a completely custom build, it would be Dura Ace. I like that they stuck with 11T as the smallest sprocket and the group does not have as many imposed compatibility constraints as SRAM's marketing geniuses imposed. Just my opinion.
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Old 11-19-21, 06:59 AM
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Having set up numerous Di2 bikes and eTap bikes, I vote for eTap every time. Easy set up that makes life simple. FWIW, I am not a fan of most everything Sram sells, however the eTap system is simply brilliant. Now the bad part. You have to use Sram hydro brakes which are inferior to Shimano hydro brakes.
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Old 11-19-21, 07:21 AM
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I built a bike last year (Covid project) and was considering Etap, because I could use a set of carbon bars I already had, and didn't have to worry about internal wiring. Couldn't find a groupset anywhere at the time, so I went with Di2 and aluminum bars designed for internal wiring.

I'm glad I did. SRAM has stopped all production of components for earlier 11 spd Etap systems (although now they have some updated software that will allow you to buy the newer 12 spd levers and reprogram them to work with 11 spd.) And now, with the new 12 sp Di2, there are no wires from the levers to run.
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Old 11-19-21, 07:56 AM
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Why not campy?
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Old 11-19-21, 08:01 AM
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The Shimano Dura Ace R9250 group uses wires from the shifter.
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Old 11-19-21, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
The Shimano Dura Ace R9250 group uses wires from the shifter.
I believe that is true for the rim brake group, but the disc brake levers are wireless.
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Old 11-19-21, 10:31 AM
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I’d go Force AXS over DA 11spd Di2, for sure, because having the extra gear is cool, the ease of AXS installation and setup is unbeatable, and having the flexibility and adapatability of the AXS platform is appealing. Dura Ace Di2 11spd offers a fair bit of weight savings over Force AXS, like nearly 1lbs, but if money was no object and the total build was coming in around 10k, I’d be well into “light bike” territory anyway, where a pound either way just wouldn’t really matter

SRAM have a beta program for AXS, so I suspect the system will be the basis of development for awhile.
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Old 11-19-21, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
I’d go Force AXS over DA 11spd Di2, for sure, because having the extra gear is cool, the ease of AXS installation and setup is unbeatable, and having the flexibility and adapatability of the AXS platform is appealing. Dura Ace Di2 11spd offers a fair bit of weight savings over Force AXS, like nearly 1lbs, but if money was no object and the total build was coming in around 10k, I’d be well into “light bike” territory anyway, where a pound either way just wouldn’t really matter

SRAM have a beta program for AXS, so I suspect the system will be the basis of development for awhile.
I would be hard pressed to give up a pound on a 10K$ bike. I find that a weight does matter biggly but then my bike and I come to 150lbs. YMMV
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Old 11-20-21, 08:51 AM
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I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs 12 on two bikes, last July. No regrets at all. I first had my force levers on rim brake frames, but in October and November I switched to disc frames, but kept my force levers and used Juin-Tech GT mechanically operated hydraulic calipers. They've worked great for over a year now. I'm not fond of sram cranks and their limited range, so I've used Campy 48/32 and shimano grx cranks that are offered in 48/31 and 46/30. The need for smaller chain rings does limit your crank choices.

Battery life with axs is good. Having easily removable batteries means you can carry a spare and never have to worry about having a dead system out on the road. I recharge mine every couple of weeks..

IMO, red axs offers nothing but a little lower weight for a lot more money. Same goes for shimano DA.
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Old 11-20-21, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
I switched from Campy chorus 12 to force axs 12 on two bikes, last July. No regrets at all. I first had my force levers on rim brake frames, but in October and November I switched to disc frames, but kept my force levers and used Juin-Tech GT mechanically operated hydraulic calipers. They've worked great for over a year now. I'm not fond of sram cranks and their limited range, so I've used Campy 48/32 and shimano grx cranks that are offered in 48/31 and 46/30. The need for smaller chain rings does limit your crank choices.

Battery life with axs is good. Having easily removable batteries means you can carry a spare and never have to worry about having a dead system out on the road. I recharge mine every couple of weeks..

IMO, red axs offers nothing but a little lower weight for a lot more money. Same goes for shimano DA.
Are you also using the SRAM flat top chain and the 12S SRAM cassette? If not, which cassette and chain? If yes, did you change the chainrings?
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Old 11-20-21, 02:33 PM
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SRAM levers agree with my hands better so I’d go SRAM
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Old 11-20-21, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Are you also using the SRAM flat top chain and the 12S SRAM cassette? If not, which cassette and chain? If yes, did you change the chainrings?
The SRAM flat top chain works just fine with both Campy and Shimano GRX cranks and Campy 12 cassettes. The combination is incredibly quiet. I tried a Shimano 12 chain and found that it didn't work great with a SRAM AXS cassette. I had shifting problems in the 13-14-15 range. If someone wanted to create a mixed drivetrain with a Shimano 12 cassette, it would work fine.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-21-21 at 03:04 PM.
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Old 11-20-21, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
The SRAM flat top chain works just fine with both Campy and Shimano GRX cranks and Campy 12 12 cassettes. The combination is incredibly quiet. I tried a Shimano 12 chain and found that it didn't work great with a SRAM AXS cassette. I had shifting problems in the 13-14-15 range. If someone wanted to create a mixed drivetrain with a Shimano 12 cassette, it would work fine.
I am using a Rotor 11-36 12s cassette, Dura Ace 7800 crank, YBN chain, and AXS red FD, RD, and shifters. Its just ok but part of it is the B stop, I am have it maxed out to handle the 36T on the regular RD. I am going to try a Campy Record chain next, then, the 36T RD after that.
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Old 11-20-21, 07:10 PM
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It's easy to make a longer B screw from an M4 button head screw with the head ground down, but too much gap will foul up the 10-11 shift.. The gap needs to be about 3mm instead of 5mm. On my bikes, the screw in all the way creates too much gap. Unless the axs chain won't work with your crank, it's the best for the cassette.

If shifting isn't good, blame the 11-36 cassette - the sprocket spacing is not correct. A sram 10-36 will work.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-20-21 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 11-20-21, 07:18 PM
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I’ve been happy with sram force on my madone.

My other bikes are shimano.
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Old 11-20-21, 09:23 PM
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I have yet to see a SRAM wireless setup and think- 'wow, that drivetrain looks awesome!', so between your two choices I would go Shimano.
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Old 11-21-21, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
It's easy to make a longer B screw from an M4 button head screw with the head ground down, but too much gap will foul up the 10-11 shift.. The gap needs to be about 3mm instead of 5mm. On my bikes, the screw in all the way creates too much gap. Unless the axs chain won't work with your crank, it's the best for the cassette.

If shifting isn't good, blame the 11-36 cassette - the sprocket spacing is not correct. A sram 10-36 will work.
I absolutely don't want the 10T, do not have XDR wheels, and the flat top chain is very inefficient. Once Shimano dura ace 10-34 12 speed cassettes are available in the USA, I think I am in business. It isn't bad but the 53x 28, 32, 36 are not the best shifting
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Old 11-21-21, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
…and the flat top chain is very inefficient.
If you’re referring to CeramicSpeed’s efficiency testing, I don’t think there’s enough substance there to warrant the clam that flattops are “very inefficient.” First, after giving the chains their super race lube treatment and running them 13hrs at 90rpm x 250w, Dura Ace and Force AXS chains are only .62w apart. When you consider that against the fact CeramicSpeed say that with factory lube most chains run 8w-10w compared to the 4.5w and 6.5w we see for these two chains, respectively, it’s not only a quite small difference between treated results compared to factory lube results, but it clearly indicates that the type of lubrication is far and away the biggest factor in efficiency. Layer in durability, and efficiency is even harder to assess since chain wear makes staying on top of state-of-lube hypercritical.

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the-...ciency-tested/
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Old 11-21-21, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Amelio View Post
If you had a choice and cost wasn’t a concern, which groupset would you choose? For a C$10,000 bike.

SRAM Force Etap 12 speed

or

Shimano Dura Ace Di2 11 Speed


and why?

Thanks for your input!
I'd go with the AXS but if I were comparing here because it works so well, is so easy to set up, and is a much cleaner installation. FWIW, I converted a Ultegra Di2 bike (11 spd) to Red eTap (11spd) and am really glad I did. I think the same would apply to 12 spd. I initially had converted a mech bike to red eTap which was really the only choice since Di2 was out of the question due to cables on a bike not designed for internal electronic routing. I liked it so much, I tossed by Di2 and replaced it with eTap. Here in Minnesota, where I ride until the ground freezes, the SRAM shifters are much easier to use with full gloves.

Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
I built a bike last year (Covid project) and was considering Etap, because I could use a set of carbon bars I already had, and didn't have to worry about internal wiring. Couldn't find a groupset anywhere at the time, so I went with Di2 and aluminum bars designed for internal wiring.

I'm glad I did. SRAM has stopped all production of components for earlier 11 spd Etap systems (although now they have some updated software that will allow you to buy the newer 12 spd levers and reprogram them to work with 11 spd.) And now, with the new 12 sp Di2, there are no wires from the levers to run.
Not entirely true. SRAM has updated the rear derailleur for Red eTap (11 spd) with a clutch derailleur just last fall. You could still buy an entire system piecemeal if you wanted to. With the modifications to make 12 spd shifters work with 11 spd, the new RD upgrade, etc... that strikes me as better than normal support for a system that has been superseded by a newer one.

J.
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Old 11-21-21, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
I'd go with the AXS but if I were comparing here because it works so well, is so easy to set up, and is a much cleaner installation. FWIW, I converted a Ultegra Di2 bike (11 spd) to Red eTap (11spd) and am really glad I did. I think the same would apply to 12 spd. I initially had converted a mech bike to red eTap which was really the only choice since Di2 was out of the question due to cables on a bike not designed for internal electronic routing. I liked it so much, I tossed by Di2 and replaced it with eTap. Here in Minnesota, where I ride until the ground freezes, the SRAM shifters are much easier to use with full gloves.



Not entirely true. SRAM has updated the rear derailleur for Red eTap (11 spd) with a clutch derailleur just last fall. You could still buy an entire system piecemeal if you wanted to. With the modifications to make 12 spd shifters work with 11 spd, the new RD upgrade, etc... that strikes me as better than normal support for a system that has been superseded by a newer one.

J.
SRAM was 2-3 years late to support customers on this matter and even still, you cannot build an entire system piecemeal. There are no 11 speed etap front derailleurs available anywhere (except fleebay scalpers) and you cannot use an AXS shifter with 11 speed etap RD and AXS FC. If you need a etap FD, you are SOL
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Old 11-21-21, 12:55 PM
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How's is this even a question? If it has SRAM it's not a dream build.
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