CEBEP

My bike mechanic was trying what he thought was right to do and it was taking much longer than it should. He tried 36 and 34t which were both rubbing with removed spacer from the crank hub. So I just ask him to install 32t and call it a day.

CEBEP

I installed hard elastomer after cassette was was installed so I can’t say. Still I assume elastomer will deform a little after usage and/or loading the rear with 15kg of bags and the last thing I want is it starting to rub again. My mechanic offered to leave the bike to him so he can experiment with different cranksets but I didn’t want to spend anymore time or money on it. 32t is after all a factory wide cog so I thought I’d just leave it at that. I’ll use it the way it is and see if 32t is enough for where I ride.

Jipe

I suggest to try to place the chainring on the inner position to reduce the chainline because another member runs a 36t cassette without problem with a Dura-ace crankset which is a rod crankset and has also a reduced chainline compared to the factory installed crankset.

The test is very easy to do: dismount the chainring from its factory external position on the crankset with its 5 bolts and remount it at the inner position. It could be needed to remove the black plastic chainring protection ring.

CEBEP

Seems to be working, just enough to hold the wheel. Thanks for advise Jipe

CEBEP

Guys what do you think could be a good option for 2 chainrings?

I think it’s the best way to increase range without compromising efficiency. If yes which chainring combination you think will work best? Big one as 52 I think will do. Also what I will need to do it? Thanks.

Update: Jipe I found your previous messages in the thread. My understanding is that your Birdy Titanium is factory equipped with 52-36 crankset and a braze-on Shimano 105 front derailleur. Do you think I can add 36t chainring to my 52t one? If yes which one would you recommend or it doesn’t matter if they all are standard?

Then I assume I’ll need Ridea front derailleur adaptor, front derailleur and then I should be fine to install it?

CEBEP

Hey BabyCowHK
I have R&M Birdy Touring with hollow crankset and assume I can add a smaller chainring (36t?) to the current stock spider with 52t stock chainring? Will appreciate if you could share your experience with upgrading Birdies to 2x front chainrings. Assuming stock chain line will allow adding a smaller chainring, what else will I need, which front derailleur will you recommend, anything else I’ll need to
consider? Thanks

Jipe

Yes, the Ti Birdy is factory equipped quit a 52-36 compact crankset and after upgrade has a 9-32 11s 3T/Ethirtheen cassette.

But with the 9-32t cassette I never need the smaller 36t chainring and have been considering to remove all that almost useless double chainring stuff (it was mounted because the original cassette was a stupid 11-28t with a too short range).

If you want a double with a front derailleur, you not only need to add a second chainring, but also to replace the factory installed 52t chainring which is not made to switch chainrings. The usual combinations that work with all front derailleur are 50-34, 52-36 and 53-39. To have best performances, you should take a set of chainrings from one single manufacturer because chainrings are optimized to work together.
You need BCD 130mm chainrings.
I would take a Ultegra front derailleur or a cheaper 105 and you need a shifter for instance a Shimano SL-RS700 left (for the front derailleur).

CEBEP

I’m happy to go with Shimano chainrings as that’s what my mechanic sells. I assume 52-36 would be my best choice. I may only only need to use 36t on really steep hills on 32t cog. Do I need to change the crankset and spider/cranks or only Shimano chainrings and front derailleur will do?

CEBEP

What would you recommend for front derailleur adaptor, Ridea or Litepro? I think factory equipped Birdy’s come with Ridea ones.

I also came across this post from Green Basikal where they claim that bottom bracket needs to be changed to a longer one to make sure front derailleur will work correctly. I’m not sure which Birdy they modified but it looks like asian one doesn’t look like R&M. As far as I know R&M Birdy Touring bottom bracket is suitable for double chainring?

Jipe

The Birdy of the link use another crankset than the original one that might have another chainline than the original one of the R&M Birdy. If ypou look at this link fro 50PlusCycling you will see that a road crankset has a too narrow chainline for the Birdy III (which isn't the case on the Ti Birdy that has a FSA SLK Light carbon road crankset).

You cannot put a Shimano 52-36 on the Birdy crankset because these are BCD 110 (old ones from old Shimano groupset, current one have a four arm proprietary Shimano mounting) while the Birdy has a BCD130 crankset. In BCD130, the standard double chainring sets are 53-39.

Anyway, the 36t chainring is much too short on a small wheel bike like the Birdy to use all cogs of the cassette, only the few smallest cogs are usable, so 39t is OK.

I haven't used a derailleur adapter on the Birdy, but Litepro is usually cheap, low quality parts, so I would take the Ridea.

CEBEP

Thanks Jipe
I came across your previous messages in the thread and also think that 53-39 should suite better and will give me 395% range with my 10s 11-32 cassette. I just checked gear calculator and 39 will give me 1.75m on 32t cog which I think is pretty close to the Rohloff low range of 1.5 ish and definitely lower than my lowest Brompton at 2.33. So climbing hills should be fine. Also 53t will somewhat improve high range too as it will be 6.94m which almost matches my 6 soeed Brompton at 7.05m. Do you think using 53t might cause any shifting issues or rubbing? I think 1t difference on chainring shouldn’t be an issue.

Do you think Shimano 53/39 chainrings will fit on my slider or I have to change cranks too? If yes which Shimano chainring model? Should I also change bottom bracket? Derailleur and derailleur adaptor are pretty clear now.

Jipe

Shimano changed the spider of their crankset many years ago from 5 arms BCD130 for double like 53-39 and BCD110 for compact 53-36 and 50-34 to a proprietary 4 arms.

You need to find a 5 arm BCD 130 53-39 set of chainrings in Dura-Ace or Ultegra or 105.

There are also compatible sets of chainrings from Specialite TA or Stronglight you will also probably need longer chainrings mounting bolts (the original ones are for a single chainring) but your mechanivs will most probably have that in stock.

I definitely advise to not change the crankset as it will most probably change the chainline !

CEBEP

Does anyone have experience with Shimano ZEE or SAINT derailleurs on Birdy? They have really short cage and the lowest they get is pretty high even on a 16’ wheel. Picture from another thread.

Ron Damon

Very clear and helpful image!

If you can install a Shimano RD, you can install a Zee RD. There is nothing special or proprietary about its mount or mounting. It mounts on a regular derailleur hanger as shown in the image.

CEBEP

Thanks, but I’m asking if anyone had installed it on Birdy. You’ve mentioned in other thread SAINT too. Which ones has shorter cage in your opinion? And what’s the difference between them?

Ron Damon

The difference between Saint and Zee is roughly the difference between XTR|XT and SLX|Deore. Weight, sheen, bragging rights and 2x the price.

CEBEP

M99 is now available with impressive 200 lux. It’s really amazing how they could squeeze it from dynamo hub power. Though I don’t know how this thing can be mounted on Birdy handlebar. Also not sure how the beam pattern is. €273 is not really cheap either.

Jipe

And its 273€ without taxes! In EU, its 330€ with taxes.

For the beam pattern, its similar to the M99 mini for ebike that has an excellent beam pattern.

CEBEP

For this money you can buy decent Detachlon BTwin TILT 500 folding bicycle. 7 speed.

BabyCowHK

CEBEP I can't answer that one. I'm in Asia and the touring models are different in Asia and Europe. When Pacific Cycles makes the bike, it has this tenancy of changing minor build configurations. So if there is a 2mm spacer installed on the drive side, it's normally good to go with a direct double chainring upgrade.

Normally the Asian model (sold by Pacific Cycles) has a spacer installed on the drive side when using a hollow axle crankset. It allows sufficient clearance for a direct double chainring setup without the chain scratching the rear fork's pivot area. Chainline is often a consideration but in Birdy bikes the allowance width on the chain line is relatively narrow. My other B3 10SP Sports model (Pacific Cycles Asian model as well) has the same 1x2mm spacer setup on the BB. I had it directly upgraded to dual chainrings without scratch or chain line problem, shifting was perfect. My setup was 53/39.

** Take note that you can't go with 36T small chainring. From the photos on R&M website, it's clear that the crank is a BCD130 hollow axle crankset made by Driveline. The smallest chainring you can go is 39T. **

In my experience, you can use most of the road FD without a problem. You will need a FD clamp to work with Birdy that's specifically manufactured for Birdy due to Birdy's wide 40mm seat tube diameter. Then you get a Braze-On type road FD. We usually get the front shifter from the series of the FD. I've used Shimano Tiagra, 105, Ultegra, Dura Ace FD. My friends have used other SRAM road FD as well.

If you want to try it out. I would suggest you to get a very cheap spared, old, 2nd hand pair of BCD130 chainring set to begin with. You don't need a FD to test it. Get chainring bolts that's long enough to hold the chainrings. Install them and do a manual hand shifting between the chainrings. You will know whether the chain line is right or not, or whether the chain will scratch the rear fork.

There are another two considers to go through for a double chainring setup on Birdy. The first one is whether the RD capacity is large enough. Second is the RD position while running on the small front chainring. Very often the RD will be pointing to the ground at the position near 90 degrees to the ground when it is shifted to use larger cassette sprockets. The RD cage will become very near to the ground on some RDs. It won't have a problem when we use large front chainring. This is a bit too much to explain here in one reply. If you want to know about this one I can explain more in another reply.

Jipe might be a better one to answer that BB spacer question for the European Birdy Touring model since he's in Europe.

BabyCowHK

Yup, I've used the Saint RD on my Touring Birdy Asian model. It's just a regular Shimano RD that can be mounted to the Birdy without any problem. What you need to consider is its capacity. It only accommodates 28T differences. The Saint and Zee RD were built for free-ride/downhill bikes. These bikes don't need frequent shifting like other types of bikes. The shifting on lower sprockets can be slower due to its slightly lower tension with short cage length. It is just how the design is.

I did a test with a hacked XT M786 and till today I'm using this test setup. Both M786 and Zee/Saint cages share the same connection mechanism. I put the cage from Saint RD to the M786 RD. I still got the slow shifting problem at 11/13T. Real-life usage isn't that much of a problem. I just have to wait for like 1 to 2s and it will still shift down to 11T.

I won't suggest you to use this with a double chainring setup due to its limited capacity at 28T. The RD was built to use a max of 11-36T cassette.

Another problem with using a MTB RD is that, folded width becomes wider due to the fact that the corner edge of the front fork (where the skewer is located) will be blocked by any Shimano RD with Shadow+ design. The front fork can't really be tugged into under the rear side of the RD like other non-shadow RDs.

(This Asian version Touring Birdy 3 came with a SRAM DD3 IGH. The cylindrical bolt is a custom-made part by Pacific Cycles to replace the original DD3 click-box. The newer version of the bike now comes with Sturmey Archer CS-RK3 IGH. Serving the same purpose of a hybrid 3x8s to 3x10s setup.)


(Left) Saint, (Mid) Hacked M786, (Right) Folding problem.

Ron Damon

Never noticed and experienced this slow shifting on the smaller cogs with the Zee RD in the six years I've been using it. Shifting does most definitely not take place on the order of one or two seconds. I would check your chain length and RD tension if you are experiencing shifting so glacially slow. Saint and Zee would have been laughed out of existence if this were true. No mountain cyclist would put up with that. Definitely not normal or standard with Zee.

BabyCowHK

A good catch on the chain length. The chain has been used for nearly 2000KM. Let me try replacing it and let you guys know.

CEBEP

Thanks for the tip regarding fold and detailed reply BabyCowHK
I didn’t consider that SAINT may make fold wider as front fork screwer screw will not go under it. Birdy’s fold is not entirely small so I’ll need to look into it.

My rear cassette is 11-32 so I assume it’s within range of SAINt/ZEE.

Regarding FD upgrade, my mechanic has a bicycle shop with lot’s of bikes and also is Shimano service center/seller. So he can test any configurations with any setup. I’m not going for 36 small chainring and will be using that what you also recommend 53/39. My mechanic suggested to replace chainring cranks and hub entirely. He says he will make sure chain line is fine. Do you think it will make sense or I better upgrade only Chainrings and leave cranks/hub as is?

CEBEP

Will Saint RD (or ZEE) work with 10s Ultegra shifter that I have installed?