Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Classic & Vintage
Reload this Page >

anyone recognize "LM" branded frame (made in Italy by Biemmezeta)?

Notices
Classic & Vintage This forum is to discuss the many aspects of classic and vintage bicycles, including musclebikes, lightweights, middleweights, hi-wheelers, bone-shakers, safety bikes and much more.

anyone recognize "LM" branded frame (made in Italy by Biemmezeta)?

Old 06-07-15, 10:28 PM
  #1  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
anyone recognize "LM" branded frame (made in Italy by Biemmezeta)?

I've recently run across a brand of frame I've never seen before. The frame was made in Italy by Biemmezeta (in the '80s, I presume) -- the BB shell is marked Cinelli and stamped "BMZ" -- but the headtube, fork crowns, seatstay caps, etc., are all marked "LM", in a distinctive way. Anyone know what "LM" might stand for?

Attached Images
File Type: jpg
LM1.JPG (39.7 KB, 108 views)
File Type: jpg
LM2.JPG (26.7 KB, 112 views)
File Type: jpg
LM3.JPG (17.6 KB, 220 views)
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-07-15, 11:32 PM
  #2  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,030
Mentioned: 338 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked 1,551 Times in 1,125 Posts
hello rch427,

the forum just recently had a similar inquiry:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...now-brand.html
juvela is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 01:33 AM
  #3  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Thanks for the lead, Juvela.

I guess the main differences -- off the top of my head -- between that frame and this one are that the frame I'm asking about definitely has a Cinelli BB shell, stamped "BMZ", and has Columbus SL decals on it (original to the frame).

There are a couple of other differences that you can't see in my close-up photos: my frame has a fluted seattube (for a shorter wheelbase) and a slot along the side of the toptube for the rear brake cable to run in. It's clearly a pretty high-end frame, but what "LM" might mean, I still have no idea.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
LM4.JPG (82.4 KB, 115 views)
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 03:43 AM
  #4  
gomango 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 814 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 130 Posts
Luigi Montagner
__________________


Bikes and stuff

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36270004@N06/
gomango is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 04:39 AM
  #5  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,185

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1246 Post(s)
Liked 281 Times in 145 Posts
Could be - I had a Montagner and the markings and head badge were totally different.





KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 07:40 AM
  #6  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,030
Mentioned: 338 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked 1,551 Times in 1,125 Posts
there are some markings in the shell forward of the bmz. are you able to make them out?
juvela is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:09 PM
  #7  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by juvela View Post
there are some markings in the shell forward of the bmz. are you able to make them out?

Yes, it's stamped "55" on both sides. I presume that's the diameter of the BB shell.
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:10 PM
  #8  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by gomango View Post
Luigi Montagner
Thanks! I figured someone here was bound to know. Great call!
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:12 PM
  #9  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Could be - I had a Montagner and the markings and head badge were totally different.
Well, pretty different, anyway; the fork crown logo is quite similar.

If I had to guess, I'd say that the frame I'm asking about is earlier than yours; I'd say it's from the late-'70s. Do you know when yours was made?
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:15 PM
  #10  
juvela
Senior Member
 
juvela's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 12,030
Mentioned: 338 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2928 Post(s)
Liked 1,551 Times in 1,125 Posts
Originally Posted by rch427 View Post
Yes, it's stamped "55" on both sides. I presume that's the diameter of the BB shell.
thanks rch427!

on the adjustable side there are markings which appear to be something other than 55.

on the fixed side there appear to be two markings resembling zeros well ahead of the numeral 5 which can be seen.

also on the fixed side there appears to be a faint numeral 9 following the clear numeral 5. perhaps this refers to the frame size in cms.

Last edited by juvela; 06-08-15 at 06:18 PM. Reason: addition
juvela is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:16 PM
  #11  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,185

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1246 Post(s)
Liked 281 Times in 145 Posts
87'.

It's certainly possible, and there is a vague similarity in the headbadge. I think of Montagner as a small frame builder, so him using a sub seems odd.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 06:20 PM
  #12  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
A-ha! This clinches it. Searching for more pics of Montagner bikes, I found this:

The seatstay caps are identical to the ones in the bike I'm asking about.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
montagner.jpg (90.8 KB, 129 views)

Last edited by rch427; 06-08-15 at 10:36 PM.
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 10:35 PM
  #13  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
I think of Montagner as a small frame builder, so him using a sub seems odd.
That's what I thought too Why would he hire BMZ to make frames for him? Still, it does have "BMZ" stamped on the BB shell, and I can't think of any other reason why that would be there.

I wonder if there was a time, early on in his "branding" of himself as a production frame designer, when he needed to have an established shop turn out frames to his spec.?
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 10:37 PM
  #14  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Yeah, there are other stamps there. The frame's owner has been...less than communicative in response to my questions. Not sure why...
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 10:42 PM
  #15  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
The other question that presents itself is -- despite the presence of Columbus decals -- is this frame really made from Columbus tubing, or is it Oria? As I mentioned, the seattube has a fluted section near the BB, so the rear wheel can be further forward than normal, and the toptube has a crease along the side for the rear brake cable. Were these tubes that Columbus supplied? Because I know that Oria made tube-sets with those features, and that many Montagner frames used Oria tube-sets. Thoughts?
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-08-15, 10:54 PM
  #16  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 451 Posts
very possible, though unusual, that Luigi Montagner had BMZ build early frames for him before he went into full production, and I think yours is an early one. I doubt that it's Oria tubing, most likely Columbus SL and you can check the steerer for rifling in the butt to confirm that guess. I'd aslo guess that any crease, crimps or flattening of the tubes was done by the builder (BMZ in this case) and not as-supplied by the tubing co. A BMZ frame with Montagner's name (if it IS his) is nothing to sneeze at, nice find! BTW My guess it that 55 x 55 are ST and TT measurements.
unworthy1 is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 12:45 AM
  #17  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't actually bought the frame yet. The seller is asking a far higher price than I think is appropriate (just under $1k), despite his not even knowing who made the frame! I wanted to find out who made it before making an offer on it.

Being from the late-'70s or early-'80s (I presume), it's a little past my preferred era in bikes (the '60s), but it's a sweet looking frame in what appears to be original paint (very important to me), it's my size, and I'm a sucker for obscure makers. We'll see if he accepts my offer.

Last edited by rch427; 06-09-15 at 01:09 AM.
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 04:21 AM
  #18  
gomango 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: STP
Posts: 15,204
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 814 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 130 Posts
Originally Posted by rch427 View Post
A-ha! This clinches it. Searching for more pics of Montagner bikes, I found this:

The seatstay caps are identical to the ones in the bike I'm asking about.
My bike.
__________________


Bikes and stuff

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36270004@N06/
gomango is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 05:00 AM
  #19  
KonAaron Snake 
Fat Guy on a Little Bike
 
KonAaron Snake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 17,185

Bikes: Two wheeled ones

Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1246 Post(s)
Liked 281 Times in 145 Posts
Originally Posted by rch427 View Post
Well, in the interest of full disclosure, I haven't actually bought the frame yet. The seller is asking a far higher price than I think is appropriate (just under $1k), despite his not even knowing who made the frame! I wanted to find out who made it before making an offer on it.

Being from the late-'70s or early-'80s (I presume), it's a little past my preferred era in bikes (the '60s), but it's a sweet looking frame in what appears to be original paint (very important to me), it's my size, and I'm a sucker for obscure makers. We'll see if he accepts my offer.
I like it, but that's not a $1,000 frame IMO.
KonAaron Snake is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 09:19 AM
  #20  
Citoyen du Monde
Senior Member
 
Citoyen du Monde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,975
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 22 Times in 13 Posts
The town where Montagner is located, Passarella, in the province of Venice, is the hometown of former world champion Moreno Argentin (He is listed as being born in San Donà because that is where the closest hospital is). It wouldn't surprise me if the bike was built by a third-party builder. I used to work less than 5 miles away from there in the early 90's and nobody spoke about Montagner as being anything special or as a go-to person for custom frames.
Citoyen du Monde is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 10:10 AM
  #21  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
I like it, but that's not a $1,000 frame IMO.
I agree. Even if I had $1,000 to burn, I wouldn't pay that for it; it would just encourage speculation over unidentified frames.

My quandary is, do I tell the seller that it's a Montagner, and that Montagner frames typically sell for a fraction of his asking price -- but risk him re-offering it correctly identified (and inviting competition to my offer), or do I keep mum?
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 10:24 AM
  #22  
SJX426 
Senior Member
 
SJX426's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Fredericksburg, Va
Posts: 8,714

Bikes: '73 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia, '83 Colnago Superissimo, '84 Trek 610, '84 Trek 760, '88 Pinarello Veneto, '88 De Rosa Pro, '89 Pinarello Montello, '94 Burley Duet, 97 Specialized RockHopper, 2010 Langster, Tern Link D8

Mentioned: 63 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1290 Post(s)
Liked 1,335 Times in 731 Posts
Tell him you did a fair amount of research and you know what it is and are willing to provide the information in return for a discount that represents the FMV.
__________________
Bikes don't stand alone. They are two tired.
SJX426 is online now  
Old 06-09-15, 10:26 AM
  #23  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
How interesting!

Is his surname typical for that area? The name and its pronunciation didn't seem typically Italian to me; I presumed his family might've been from somewhere in the mountainous northwest of Italy -- perhaps Piedmont.

I don't really care about Montagner's relative stature in the Italian framebuilding world; I'd never even heard of him before. AFAIK, Biemmezeta built good frames, Cinelli made good BB shells, Columbus SL is good tubing, the lug shaping and filing is good, it's a nicely finished frame, the geometry looks good to me, it's my size, has nice paint with a nice patina, etc. That adds up to a frame worth building up into a rider. For $1K? Nope. But certainly for a fraction thereof.


Originally Posted by Citoyen du Monde View Post
The town where Montagner is located, Passarella, in the province of Venice, is the hometown of former world champion Moreno Argentin (He is listed as being born in San Donà because that is where the closest hospital is). It wouldn't surprise me if the bike was built by a third-party builder. I used to work less than 5 miles away from there in the early 90's and nobody spoke about Montagner as being anything special or as a go-to person for custom frames.
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 12:02 PM
  #24  
rch427
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
rch427's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 168

Bikes: 1965 Hetchin's, 1977 Galmozzi, 1956 Rochet, 1947 Gnome et Rhone, 1972 De Rosa, 1948 Bates B-A-R, 1979 Trevor Jarvis (Baines) "Flying Gate", 1978 Benotto, etc.

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked 18 Times in 14 Posts
My bike.
Very nice!

Considering that you are the only Montagner owner I've encountered, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on your bike.
rch427 is offline  
Old 06-09-15, 09:54 PM
  #25  
unworthy1
Stop reading my posts!
 
unworthy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,027
Mentioned: 73 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1026 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 451 Posts
Originally Posted by rch427 View Post
Very nice!

Considering that you are the only Montagner owner I've encountered, I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on your bike.
I had one once and flipped it, I thought it was an above average Italiano, but Mr.Maasland has FAR more experience to draw upon than me! There's no way this could fetch $1000 unless the world as we know it has become completely drug-addled...oh, maybe so! You are not risking much by mentioning Montagner's name, he is NOT widely known, and not that collectible. FWIW the scolars may have better historical fact than me, but there were many regions of Italy before unification that were ruled by French monarchs, not to mention Spaniards, Greeks, Africans, Austro-Germans, Swiss, and assorted Middle Easterners, North Africans and Asia Minor-ists. A name like Montagner probably has some French Connection.
unworthy1 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.