kmcrawford111

Hello friends,

I'm still relatively new at winter cycling, and bought my first set of studded tires two years ago. I went with Marathon Winters. I'm very happy with how they handle on ice, but lately they have been disappointing in snow - even shallow snow, and even at 30 PSI. The bike I've been using is a Swobo Dixon. This is the first year using the studs on this bike - in the previous two years I was using an 8 year-old Mongoose MTB. It's not clear if changing the bike decreased my snow-biking ability, but I don't see how it could (much). A single stud is missing on the front tire, but that's all. Rutted, crusty ice/snow is the worst and often un-ride-able.

I'm looking to step up my snow-riding ability by more than just a little, and it seems that changing tires is the answer. I don't expect to bike in all conditions - I've seen pictures of the Nokian "Extremes", and I think they may be a little too aggresssive, but I would like to be able to handle at least 2-3" snow. I've considered buying a spare front wheel, which I can change relatively easily, and installing a different tire on it as described in another recent thread. This way, I can at least keep my MWs until they wear out. One possible problem with this, though, is that the new wheel would have a new disc, so I wonder if I would have to adjust the calipers when changing the wheel (do the discs wear thin from use?). I don't want to be changing the rear tire on a regular basis because that is a bit of a job. I also wonder if still having a MW in the rear won't allow me much better snow riding than I have now, and if that will be the case I'm not interested.

Or I can simply replace both the front and back tires with something new and sell the MWs. But I want something that will be at least tolerable on paved surfaces. One thing I can say about the MWs is that they handle surprisingly well on paved surfaces. I do have a road bike for clear roads, but sometimes I'm navigating a mix of road conditions - some clear, some frosty.

So, for you snow experts, got any advice for me? Essentially, I want to be able to handle ice, 2-3" snow, and paved surfaces by either changing both tires or swapping in a spare wheel with a new tire and keeping my existing Marathon Winter in the back. I don't mind having to regulate the pressure as needed - I carry a Topeak Turbo Morph G, which has a gage.

Main concern is taking a spill next to auto traffic. 7-mi. 1-way commute.

Edit: New tires must have high puncture resistance as well - I don't savor the prospect of changing a tube when its zero degrees F. No flats on my MWs yet.

Edit#2: Should I be running at low pressure in significant snow the same as I'm supposed to do for ice per the manufacturer? I thought I was supposed to, but now I'm not certain...

Many thanks!

electrik

Yes, run low pressure in the snow.

The marathon winter tire isn't for deep snow, it is not the correct type... it is however excellent at what it is designed for, up to 2-2.5" of snow(low-profile lugs for better rolling) and random ice.

If you want something in between the nokian w106 will handle the snow better, but not by much and probably isn't worth the trouble.

Unfortunately i can't think of a wider tire with more aggressive lugs and still studded, most tires in the class are for off-road only. You can always go for a large MTB off-road tire for those stormy days with over 3" of snow forecast. You should check peterwhitecycles he has a long list of studded tires. I wouldn't be counting on switching the tires around... best to get a new set of cheap rims for the one-off days... you might have to adjust the caliper or not, depends if the hub is the same model and made exactly to exactly the same dimensions.

NoRacer

See the "How to decide on models" and reviews of the various brands and models sold here just to get an idea of what to look for:

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/studdedtires.asp

Also, see:

https://www.icebike.org/Articles/techniques.htm

...for reasons why under certain circumstances one type of tire may do better than the next depending on what you are riding on.

kmcrawford111

Well that's just the problem - the MWs aren't working well even in 2-2.5" snow. If they did work well in these cases I would be satisfied. Actually I should qualify that - if the snow is fresh, they work well enough. But when it gets compacted, and rutted, and mushy, etc.. everything goes to hell. Is this the case for every studded tire? I started to slip on a patch that didn't look even 1" yesterday, though I couldn't see what was underneath it. But I'm getting the impression that others are able to handle the snow better than I can. I've read up on how to ride in it before so I don't know what I could be doing to improve technique.

Many thanks for the replies.

iforgotmename

My marathons are goood for what they are meant to do but...I will probably buy the Nokian Hakkapeliitta 240's next year. My marathons do well as long as my cadance is correct, as to not dig in to much causing a slip. I learned all I know about ice biking form ice road truckers

Juha

Icy ruts are a problem with W106s as well, they tend to throw the front wheel every which way. I have no personal experience of beefier tyres such as 240s, extra air might help cushion some of that effect. Most of my commute is on MUPs, so for me this is more of an inconvenience than a real safety hazard. I've noticed keeping my weight in the rear helps (and obviously lifting the front wheel if I can see them coming).

Ruts are pretty much the only one reason why I've ever considered getting a shock fork for commuter bike - that might help too. Then again, more moving parts in winter bike means more things to break sooner or later.

--J

irclean

I use the Marathon Winters on my bike, although mine are 700c vs. your Dixon's 26 inchers. My experience so far (this is my first winter commuting) has been similar to yours; I find myself slipping and sliding in snow - especially the kind that has that "mashed potato" consistency. Otherwise they perform great on ice or well-compacted snow. I have an old mountain bike that I'm in the process of making DIY studded tires for with some aggresive 26x2.125 knobbies that I plan to use for crappy conditions, but I feel my MWs will still suffice for most days. My suggestion to you is to pick up another front wheel and mount a more aggressive tire on it because correcting a rear wheel skid is a lot easier than a skid with the front wheel. Also with your IGH rear setup it would just be easier to leave the MW mounted on the back. I hear good things about the Nokian W240s but I don't know about their puncture resistance. That being said one would hope that most of the things that cause punctures would be buried under the snow where they can't hurt you. Of course Murphy's Law still applies. The W240s seem like a good balance between aggressive tread and rolling resistance. I wanted them for my bike but chose the MWs for their more forgiving fender clearance; the W240s just wouldn't have worked for my application. If you're just going to use that front wheel on crappy days you could take it to the next level with some Extreme 294s or Schwalbe's Ice Spikers (Schwalbe gives their tire a 5-star puncture resistance rating). Good luck and make sure to post the results of your choice!

JPprivate

What I read, and this works for me on my Nokian 106 is really low pressure. I read somewhere that you try as low as <20psi, I have mine at 22 front, 29 back.

tsl

I'm wondering if the problem isn't one of expectations rather than the tires.

Switching to snows or studded snows makes most cars feel invincible in the conditions the OP describes. They make bad conditions feel like clean dry pavement, and give a feeling of enhanced stability.

That's never going to be the case with bicycles, mainly due to the weight. No tire isn't going change the fact that compressed snow can throw my bike around. In snow that's been compressed by a two-ton vehicle, there's not much my weight (one-twentieth of the vehicle's) is going to do about it. Instead, the surface will do to me. The best I can hope for is a tire that will make the most of what traction is available so I can stay upright.

In loose snow and slush, there's enough give to the snow/slush and weight for my bike to sink to the pavement. There I can enjoy enhanced stability and a near dry-pavement sense of control. On bare ice, the studs can do their job. It's the in-between where my insufficient weight is the issue. No tire will change that. Or at least, no tire I'm capable of pedaling.

Yes, lower pressure helps. It helps a lot. But it is not a panacea. It helps only to the extent that the tire can mold itself around smaller surface defects rather than be pushed around by them. Larger surface irregularities still push me around.

2manybikes

Studs on tires need hard ice, or hard packed snow to make a difference. In snow that has no ice under it they are the same as an equal tire with no studs. Without something relativley hard to stick into, the studs don't help. Fat tires with knobs and low pressure are best for snow. Using my 32 lb steel bike with 16 lbs in the panniers and me weighing 170, I use 15 psi in the front tire and 22 in the rear with Nokians 294's. The larger tire helps prevent pinch flats, so does learning to avoid big hits.

One still needs to know how to handle the bike in a slide, and how to ride on a slippery surface. Even the best tires will slip in some conditions, one should always expect this, and learn what to do. Learn to counter steer into a rear tire slide and ride the slide with one foot down if needed, it will help a lot. Also on a slippery surfaces try to turn corners with the bike straight up. Be ready to put a foot down at all times. Learn to pedal gently in slippery conditions to keep the back tire from slipping. Being clipped in on snow is actually the opposite of what is best.
Having flat pedals and a little less power transmitted to the pedals makes for better traction control of the back tire. Just like starting a stuck car in second gear helps in slippery conditions. Less power is easier to control to prevent tire slip.

Deep hard frozen ruts can toss you right over, on the ground or in front of a car, no tire can solve this totally. It can be the same as getting a road tire in a rut in pavement. It's especially dangerous if the ruts are covered with snow and you don't see them.

In short- expect the bike to slide and learn what to do. Expect hard frozen ruts to toss you over even a couple of feet from your chosen path, try to learn what to do. Don't ride next to cars with hard deep frozen ruts, they can toss you right in front of a car.

Arcanum

I agree. If the surface physically moves your tire/wheel, either by being immobile or by moving after you ride up on it, there's not much any tire is going to be able to do. It's better to avoid icy ruts and the sorts of snow and slush that will move under your wheels rather than be just pushed out of the way. Sometimes you can't avoid it, though, and you have to just take it slow and improve your skill at riding in that stuff.

tjspiel

IMHO the Marathon Winter just isn't that great in snow. Fresh, undisturbed snow isn't so bad as long as it's not too deep but honestly, 23mm slicks aren't so bad in fresh undisturbed snow either as long as they can get down to the pavement.

I'd say Kenda Klondikes, Nokian W106s and 240s are all better but what other folks have said is true. The conditions you describe is not a cakewalk for any of the other tires I mentioned either. I have a rear wheel with a Marathon Winter on it just waiting for the roads to get better because it rolls so much nicer than the 240s I have on my bike now. However the roads are so bad at the moment my speed is more limited by the conditions than the rolling resistance of the tires so I'm sticking with the 240s both front and rear.

electrik

I have to agree with those who are citing conditions... some of that 80%-frozen slush is very slippery.. even on foot you have trouble staying up right. The only thing that helps with this is a wider tire and better bike geometry. I usually just deal when it comes to the slush... it's not a huge issue as i can generally keep moving and this winter while being colder has produced nowhere near the snow as the last two(not even close!) which required larger tires on a few occasions.

If OP can't find a satisfactory tire, why not purchase the largest aggressive knobby mtb tire he can find for cheap and stud it lightly himself... if you only use it 5-10 times a year for those large storms it should last a while and not cost you a lot of dough.

Tequila Joe

tjspiel speaks truth.

This is the first year I've commuted on 700c x 35mm Schwalbe Winters. They aren't good in snow over 2" deep;the front tire seems to always wash out but the rear tire sticks alright. I got the Schwalbes because of thier low rolling resistance, it is fabulous but you really sacrifice rutted roads / deep snow performance. Fortunatly I have a mountain bike with 26" Nokian 294 for those days where the Schwalbe just can't cut it.

I'm planning on getting a Nokian 240 for a front tire and runnng a Schwalbe on the back next winter.

kmcrawford111

Thanks everyone... if I had to do it all over again, it looks like I would be buying the Nokian W240s... though I'm still on the fence about switching now. Peter White's site seems to suggest that there isn't a large difference between the MW and the W240, but then again, I have seen at least 2 or 3 people state that the MWs aren't great in snow.

Mainly I'm just bummed about riding less lately - this is my 3rd winter commuting season, and I can't remember having such a long stretch where I didn't feel confident about doing the entire commute. I almost always do at least the last quarter, though. Certainly better than nothing.

How long should I expect my MWs to last before needing replacement? I estimate that after this season, they'll have around 1500 miles. They still look great though, with the exception of aforementioned missing stud on one. Probably should have put that one on the rear instead, now that I think about it.

electrik

Forever... or until the rubber rots. Just sell them if you aren't confident in them.

kmcrawford111

After reading your post, I think I'm going to get a single W240, put it in the front without buying another wheel, and see how things go.

Juha

Please report back. I'd be interested to know how it works out.

kmcrawford111

Well I've been looking all over the place and can't find anyone that has the W240s in stock in 26". Does anyone know a place that does?

I was also looking at the M&G 160, which looks to be very similar. I can't find anything that suggests they have different applications, though the W240s seem to be a bit more expensive. Can anyone tell me if they will work just as well as the W240s? Stores still seem to have the M&Gs. If the W240s are even slightly better I'll probably just wait, though.

hshearer

tsl is absolutely right about the snow. I have Nokian extremes front and back on a heavy rigid mountain bike. I still get 'pushed around' by the surface conditions sometimes. I'm pretty convinced they're the best tire I could be using, but nothing will make riding on snow easy. I'm never in danger of falling over, and since not getting squished by a car is my #1 priority, I consider the extra cost worthwhile. Saving a hundred dollars or so just isn't worth risking serious injury or even death. Even saving myself from a sprained wrist or bruised knee is worth a hundred bucks in my books, actually.

My first winter I wasn't sure I'd stick with it, or that studs helped much. So, I used a lightly studded 700C tire on front, and a slick tire on the back (for the $ savings). I learned my snow skills pretty quickly that year! I've since decided that I deserve to be safe, and prefer stability and a good resistance workout over speed. I still use that set-up sometimes, though, when I lend my 'good' bike and go on a ride with a first time winter cyclist, or on those rare days in fall and spring when there's just a chance of ice here and there, but none that's obvious.

Having used both a 'minimalist' winter tire set up, and the 'ultimate' (apart from getting a Pugsley, I guess), and also having ridden slicks and knobbies without studs on ice, I can tell you that there's a big difference. Get the two best tires you're willing to shell out for, and enjoy them. The extra confidence makes winter riding a lot of fun.

tjspiel

I'm not sure if the 240 comes in a 26" version or not. I have the 700c.

iforgotmename

Peter White Cycles has one left according to his website.

Yellowbeard

This is my second Ottawa winter on a bike, and I find it's surprising how LITTLE difference there is between something like a 1.75" with studs and a 27" x 1 1/4 in the snow. Last year I was riding 700 x 25s late in the season, but there were no more snowstorms to get a real test. Nonetheless, they cut through the road snot pretty well.

Right now I'm using both a fixed gear with 26" Marathon Winters and a 5 speed with 27" x 32 (smooth, no tread at all) and I'm actually choosing the 32c Ultrasports over the studs. The Marathon Winters are great when it's -25 Celsius and everything is hard and frozen, but when the snow is thick and slippery I'm doing some sliding no matter what. You've just gotta know how to handle it.

kmcrawford111

It does... and I'm surprised to see so many studded tires in 700cc now. Two years ago I thought there were no studs available in 700c.

Thanks. I saw that too and called them today... it's gone.

electrik

Supposedly(assuming your 1.75 was a 26"), the functional differences in width are narrowed by the longer contact patch of the larger diameter wheel. As a result you end up having a tire control-patch that is closer to the same area provided by the slightly wider 26" wheel.

OP, I think the largest difference in the road snot comes from running taller knobbies. Same reason you wouldn't try to walk in snow wearing dress shoes even if they had little studs on them.