chrisx

https://translate.google.com/?sl=sr
https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/bod...nd-in-chiapas/
https://www.excelsior.com.mx/naciona...no_mobile=true

I was thinking of rolling that way last week, but did not..

chrisx

What happened to the thread about danger to cyclists?
With a way to mark a map?

mev

https://www.theyucatantimes.com/2018/05/missing-european-cyclists-may-have-fallen-into-a-ravine-in-chiapas/

This one is rather sad. I first saw postings on FB from the brother of the German cycle tourist, reporting him missing, followed by rather gruesome discoveries along the San Christolbal de las casas/Ocosingo road. Little doubt in the FB group that this was foul play and not two cycle tourists just happening to ride off side of the road into a deep ravine.

Last year I cycled through Chiapas on my ride across the Americas including via San Christobal (but not with a detour to Palanque these cyclists were on). No problems whatsoever and overall friendly people along the way. It does underscore the somewhat random nature of these events. Prior to my trip, I read many journals/books/accounts and also kept a mental map of a dozen plus areas where incidents happened (along with over a hundred crossings with no problems at all). There was another in Palenque area, but that was closer to time of guerilla activities a few years ago. I took a few general sense precautions (e.g. avoiding isolated roads, night travels or camping without permission) but nothing out of the ordinary. Nor do I know if those would have played any role in this incident.

mev

In Spanish:

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1657708741013962&id=901883989929778

mev

I still believe rather than a separate map with upkeep/use/promotion this implies, it would be at least as good to annotate a database/app like iOverlander. It has sometimes similar information and was used by a number of cyclists I met to find camping spots, road conditions and services.

iOverlander isn't bicycle-only but had other contributions from motorcyclists/drivers generally oriented to traveling/camping/inexpensive lodging. This larger user base keeps more info updated and hence mostly useful to touring cyclists as well. Entries are tagged by dates so naturally "age". Adding in danger spots would help a database already in use.

djb

thats the thing with situations like this.
This makes me recall clearly from a long time ago, the father of one of those basketball stars, Michael Jordan I think, had the misfortune of meeting someone who robbed and murdered him on the road, Mr Jordan in his car, a red Lexus I remember from the photo of the car when found.

complete bad luck, wrong place, wrong time sort of situation.

I always figured being two riders would help in this sort of situation, m a y b e , but I freely admit that in my travels, especially when alone, when I noticed a car pulling over either ahead of me or just behind me, my paranoid radar ramped up and I would start evaluating what options I have, if any (going over to other side of road lets say, but lets face it, if its really nefarious theres not much you can do except cooperate.

in this sad case, unless there is direct evidence of a collision (unlikely given that both were in the ravine, also the distance between them, 200 metres), it would be fairly easy to know what material was with them and if things were taken, indicating foul play.

the sad thing is that to me it seems this was a "robbery gone wrong" situation, and unfortunately not alone to Mexico, but happens in all of our countries to corner store employees, or pedestrians each and every day.

jamawani 

There are many pieces of this tragedy that remain unknown.
But what is known does not seem to fall into place easily as "an accident".

First, it appears that the riders were very experienced and strong.
They may have ridden at night or when tipsy - but, most likely, not.

Second, it seems unlikely that both would have veered off the road into the ravine.
It's possible that both were run off the road - depends how close they were to each other.
Since they had just met up - they probably were used to riding solo at their own pace.

Third, there is the cultural angle of wealthy touring cyclists in a poor region.
Flashing a pricey smartphone or Garmin has risks - esp. in a region of endemic crime.
Not to mention that local police resources are already overwhelmed.

It could be that no one will ever know what really happened.
But cyclists should use extreme caution in Chiapas, Guatemala, and El Salvador.

axolotl

That section of road in Chiapas (between San Cristobal & Palenque) has had a problem with nighttime bus robberies over a period of years. Other parts of Chiapas haven't had serious problems that I'm aware of. The city of San Cristobal itself and surrounding villages is quite safe. I spent 3 weeks there and went on many day rides. I also visited the part of Chiapas in and around Comitan and Lagos de Montebello National Park along the Guatemalan border. Comitan is a pleasant town and seemed quite safe, as did the national park.

chrisx

This is a Heroine produceing region. Some say the poilce have close ties to the criminal gangs, some say the police are the criminal gangs. If you want to sell drugs, you join the police department first.

jefnvk

I've done some dumb things in my life, such as running with bulls in Spain and being one of the first tourists to the newly independent Kosovo mere days after declaring independence from Serbian while still being under heavy military presence.

I'm certainty not risking my life cycling through some of the narco regions. While I can certainly believe one killed by an inattentive driver could indicate no foul play, I certainly cant believe a second a few hundred meters up the road is just a gigantic coincidence.

djb

this topic touches on safety in general, and waht we can do to minimize risk. I'll be giving a talk on riding in Latin America in the future, and danger and doing ones best to minimize danger will be one of my topics I touch on.
Again, murders from robberies gone wrong happen every day in the United States, in Canada, and the unfortunate thing is that usually its not a planned thing, but a panicked or under the influence young man that makes a horrible decision , but I have personally spent enough time travelling on my own in Latin America to know that the social situations in many places are much much gloomier than here in Canada, and the chances of robbery is just going to be more. My Latin American friends live with a much more guarded attitude to things, simply because of the reality of poor desperate people and bad things happening.
As travellers, all we can do in our control is to minimize the risk by following certain rules, trying to keep a low profile as much as a gringo on a bike can (not flashing money, expensive doo dads) and doing as best as one can by listening to what people say about an area and or going with your gut instinct.

y toca madera...

Abu Mahendra

Quite a transcript of events there. A bit of a tangled web.

djb

sheesh, you said it. I read it in Spanish and didnt understand a fair amount, but the main thing is that things of value had disappeared. Crummy story.

fantom1 

Ok, I speak Spanish and read that Facebook post. Literally one of the worst constructed things ever. So difficult to read in any language, so sorry if I missed something. Paragraphs are not their strong suite.

Basically two cyclist disappeared at around the same time. Two bodies were found, one severely mutilated and the other not so bad, but both still decomposing in what may seem like too much for the supposed dates of death. The author has questions as to the identification of the bodies as the two missing cyclists because of difficulties in identifying known tattoos. Both bodies were found within 200 meters of each other, but one long after the other. The author seems to be a conspiracy theorist. What is beyond a doubt is that both of the cycling tourist have disappeared and both of the bodies are being identified by the authorities as the missing tourists....

My .02 as someone who has been throughout Mexico since I was young and speaks Spanish at a fluent level:

Say TF out of Mexico.

Seriously, its a roll of the dice. The majority of the people are amazing, truly "salt of the Earth" hospitable, funny, generous, and amazing. 99%. But the situation down there right now is really, really bad. Its just not worth the risk. My Mexican friends say the same. If you are in politics or not a local, its best to choose somewhere else. It it just so hit or miss right now.

Trevtassie

Local Police "Yeah, they're dead, what's the easiest thing for us? Ah, traffic accident"

Abu Mahendra

Last year, when we spent two months there, was the deadliest year on record. Nevertheless, I reckon the Yucatan (Campeche, Yucatán and Quintana Roo) are still good to go.

willibrord

chrisx

Anything beyound a stollen cell phone?


The attorney General in Chiapas wants to cover this up because he fears the tourist industry will be devistated.
Now they have a witness that saw 3 men throwing the bodies in the ravine.
Cutting off the Polish guys foot then head ,(torture,) could mean they want the code for the atm cards, anyone checking on that?

Heroine distrubitation goes way up the ladder, including the political ladder. Difficult to fight.

djb

your view and others expressed here does not reflect my personal experience of about 2 months biking in Mexico and down through Guat, Hond, Nic and C.R.
I am however very aware of proper planning and doing as much as one can to minimize risk, while being aware of the significant social and economic hardships on this whole region.

and am not discounting "wrong place, wrong time" situations that could happen, but as you said yourself, the vast majority of Mexicans are exactly as you describe, and I chose specifically on my last trip to visit solely in Mexico to help support the country and local communities in my tiny bit as I travelled through them, using hotels, restaurants, stores etc.

axolotl

+1

fantom1 

I understand your point, but my view is just that its not worth the risk; there really isn't anything to reflect or not reflect, its an opinion of possibilities.

If the risk out of all the other possible places to tour in the world is acceptable to you, great, but to me, its not.

djb

and thats cool.
but if I get hit by a car or robbed in France or somewhere, I'm going to be really pissed off at you buddy, and don't you forget it.
happy and safe travels wherever you bike tour.

Hondo Gravel

Abu Mahendra

Out of curiosity, how far south into Mexico have you ventured?

Hondo Gravel