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Cars are not People

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Cars are not People

Old 07-12-16, 03:55 PM
  #1  
tandempower
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Cars are not People

This forum seems to attract people who defend cars as if they were people. LCF, by definition, implies de-automotivization at one or more levels, whether you're talking about your lifestyle as an individual or reducing driving in a larger area. Because of this, some people seem to respond as if people are under attack, not just cars and driving. I came to understand how this feels in a recent thread where I allowed myself to get emotionally upset by anti-population advocacy that essentially amounts to negativity toward humans as a species, which offends me because I empathize with people who would be targeted for population control measures such as forced birth control or otherwise.

But why would people feel the same about the assertion that the world is overpopulated with cars? If cars aren't people, or even living things for that matter, why would the idea that they are a problem bother anyone? I think it might have to do with the way cars have been marketed as extensions of ourselves and our identities, instead of as appliances like any other. Certainly no one would feel offended if it was said that there are too many kitchen appliances produced and used, and they are marketed mostly for the sake of making money and not really for convenience in cooking and cleaning. Yet many people will take it personally if cars are under attack. Why?

I used to assume the people defending cars were auto workers or others tied to automotive industries, businesses, and their subsidiaries. Or else I assumed they were just people who have a knee-jerk patriotic reaction to cars as something proudly American, since culture has propagated this idea for quite a while. Now I'm beginning to wonder whether it's not something deeper and more anthropomorphic about psychological empathy with cars, like when you see a human statue violently attacked in a way that causes you to empathize with the statue as if it is more than a piece of carved stone, metal, or wood.

Is this the case? Are people offended by anti-automotive sentiments because they empathize directly with cars? Or is it just that they so strongly believe in the right to drive as some kind of fundamental human right? And if they feel it's a fundamental human right, why don't they care about everyone living around the world LCF as being deprived of driving? Is there just a double-standard regarding human rights based on nationality and super-national discrimination between 'people like us' and 'people who are less like us?'
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Old 07-12-16, 04:19 PM
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CliffordK
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People like cars...
And cars are convenient.

Want to head 20 miles across town and get there in 1/2 hour, dry & refreshed?
Or want to head across town and get there in 2 hours on the bus, or 2 hours on the bike, and get soaked in the rain and drenched in sweat?

It takes some sacrifices to bike. Want to head 200 miles away with the family? One heck of a hard 200 mile bike ride... OR take some some kind of motorized transportation.

Head off to a trail 50 miles away with a horses for everyone. A day or two of riding to the there, or an hour in the pickup?

Living car free may be good for some people, but certainly not everyone all the time. And do you "cheat" with public transportation, or do you live your life in the circle you can reach on your two feet and bicycle?

It is easy to equate cars with their drivers. But in reality, they are just simple tools being used for a job. Of course requiring expensive public infrastructure, and quickly chewing up fuels sequestered on Earth from before the era of the dinosaurs.
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Old 07-12-16, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Are people offended by anti-automotive sentiments because they empathize directly with cars? Or Is it just that they so strongly believe in the right to drive as some kind of fundamental human right?

Yes, it's one of the basic human rights to own and operate a vehicle and there is absolutely nothing immoral or evil about vehicle ownership...What's really offensive is some of the sermons that are being preached by some of the members of the church of LCF.
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Old 07-12-16, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
This forum seems to attract people who defend cars as if they were people.
And some of us that way about bicycles
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Old 07-12-16, 05:26 PM
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Some cyclists seem to think that bicycles are people and they even name their bicycles after people, this world is full of crazy people.
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Old 07-12-16, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Some cyclists seem to think that bicycles are people and they even name their bicycles after people, this world is full of crazy people.
There are worse forms of crazy than loving your bicycle.
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Old 07-12-16, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Walter S View Post
There are worse forms of crazy than loving your bicycle.

I like my bicycles, I find them useful, I find them fun...but I don't give them human names.
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Old 07-12-16, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I like my bicycles, I find them useful, I find them fun...but I don't give them human names.
What if some people do? Is there room for them?
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Old 07-12-16, 06:11 PM
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People are lazy, People are into convenience, People are time constrained, People are wanting to be "better" than the Jones's. People want to fit in... Take your pick... That's some of the reasons why the car culture is here. Same with the difference in riding oxen, burrows, horses, in yester years, there is a class mentality that makes people want to "show" their "success" It's how it works, and with todays advertising...
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Old 07-12-16, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Yes, it's one of the basic human rights to own and operate a vehicle and there is absolutely nothing immoral or evil about vehicle ownership...What's really offensive is some of the sermons that are being preached by some of the members of the church of LCF.
You could say the human body is a vehicle for the soul. The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness fundamentally respects the inalienability of the human body as the soul's vehicle. When the liberty to drive interferes with the liberty to operate a human body, one right clearly trumps the other.
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Old 07-12-16, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
You could say the human body is a vehicle for the soul. The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness fundamentally respects the inalienability of the human body as the soul's vehicle. When the liberty to drive interferes with the liberty to operate a human body, one right clearly trumps the other.
And it most certainly does, the "right to drive" wins every time these days, and for the last 50 years or so it would seem...
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Old 07-12-16, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
You could say the human body is a vehicle for the soul. The right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness fundamentally respects the inalienability of the human body as the soul's vehicle. When the liberty to drive interferes with the liberty to operate a human body, one right clearly trumps the other.
You could say that, but as the "soul" is a fabricated concept I'm not sure it really advances your argument.

I don't think people are offended by anti-automobile arguments. They just don't think such arguments are anything but fantasy. I don't believe there is the slightest chance any of us will see a world without private vehicles. Cars will eventually disappear, but only when replaced by new forms of personal transportation. Absent apocalyptic cataclysm, human society will not move backwards.
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Old 07-12-16, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
People like cars...
And cars are convenient.

Want to head 20 miles across town and get there in 1/2 hour, dry & refreshed?
Or want to head across town and get there in 2 hours on the bus, or 2 hours on the bike, and get soaked in the rain and drenched in sweat?

It takes some sacrifices to bike. Want to head 200 miles away with the family? One heck of a hard 200 mile bike ride... OR take some some kind of motorized transportation.

Head off to a trail 50 miles away with a horses for everyone. A day or two of riding to the there, or an hour in the pickup?

Living car free may be good for some people, but certainly not everyone all the time. And do you "cheat" with public transportation, or do you live your life in the circle you can reach on your two feet and bicycle?

It is easy to equate cars with their drivers. But in reality, they are just simple tools being used for a job.

+1

Cars (motor vehicles) can be the right tool for the job. They are a convenient and practical solution.
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Old 07-12-16, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
i don't think people are offended by anti-automobile arguments. They just don't think such arguments are anything but fantasy. I don't believe there is the slightest chance any of us will see a world without private vehicles. cars will eventually disappear, but only when replaced by new forms of personal transportation. absent apocalyptic cataclysm, human society will not move backwards.
+1
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Old 07-12-16, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
And it most certainly does, the "right to drive" wins every time these days, and for the last 50 years or so it would seem...
If so, does that make it right? Does might make right?

Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
You could say that, but as the "soul" is a fabricated concept I'm not sure it really advances your argument.
How does anyone's opinion of the soul's existence relate to what I said? You could also say the body is the vehicle for the mind and the logic would be the same. People are inalienably attached to their bodies but not to their cars.

I don't think people are offended by anti-automobile arguments. They just don't think such arguments are anything but fantasy. I don't believe there is the slightest chance any of us will see a world without private vehicles. Cars will eventually disappear, but only when replaced by new forms of personal transportation. Absent apocalyptic cataclysm, human society will not move backwards.
I don't expect cars to disappear. I just expect them to shrink as a mode. The only people I expect to drive in the future are those who have good reason to. A culture has evolved where all sorts of people drive all over the place for unnecessary reasons and non-critical jobs. A lot less infrastructure and parking will be needed if most driving is replaced by other forms of transportation. Certain experts will always need to drive because they will have to visit multiple locations within a region without waiting on transit schedules. Most people's skills are not that important, though.
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Old 07-12-16, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I don't expect cars to disappear. I just expect them to shrink as a mode.
I expect that there will always be quick and convenient individual and personal modes of transportation. This method of transportation won't always be the motorised "car" as we know it today ... but something similar will continue to exist for the rest of our lives and decades/centuries beyond. As soon as mankind hitched a cart up to an animal, we saw the benefits of quick and convenient individual and personal modes of transportation ... we're not about to let that go.


A small number will continue to opt for walking, cycling and public transportation as their only or main method of transportation.

A slightly larger number will use those methods of transportation on occasion.

But most will continue to go for the quick and convenient individual and personal modes of transportation.
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Old 07-12-16, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post

I don't expect cars to disappear. I just expect them to shrink as a mode. The only people I expect to drive in the future are those who have good reason to. A culture has evolved where all sorts of people drive all over the place for unnecessary reasons and non-critical jobs.
I understand you'd like to see this, but do you actually expect to see it?

I certainly hope I don't live to see this as it would require a combination of severe economic collapse and an authoritarian government to make this happen. And that's certainly not something I'd care to experience.

Sure, much driving is unnecessary. A great deal of the activities human beings engage in is unnecessary. The level of housing many enjoy in the US is certainly unnecessary. For that matter the expenditure of resources that allow us to waste our time tapping out our opinions on laptops is hardly necessary. But few people are going to give up driving or anything else they wish to do simply because they realize it's unnecessary.
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Old 07-12-16, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Yes, it's one of the basic human rights to own and operate a vehicle and there is absolutely nothing immoral or evil about vehicle ownership...What's really offensive is some of the sermons that are being preached by some of the members of the church of LCF.
About the only groups I find to be more annoying are vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses.

And most of these advocates can't afford a car to start with.

I could make the claim I'm living Living Lear Jet Free because I don't want a big carbon footprint, but I'd be just as disingenuous.
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Old 07-12-16, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by andr0id View Post
About the only groups I find to be more annoying are vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses.

And most of these advocates can't afford a car to start with.

I could make the claim I'm living Living Lear Jet Free because I don't want a big carbon footprint, but I'd be just as disingenuous.

Do you also go on the Jehovah Witness website to inform them how annoying they are?

At any rate, if you want to advance this discussion (and stay on topic), tell us why you have such strong negative response when you think cars are being attacked.

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Old 07-12-16, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
I understand you'd like to see this, but do you actually expect to see it?

I certainly hope I don't live to see this as it would require a combination of severe economic collapse and an authoritarian government to make this happen. And that's certainly not something I'd care to experience.

Sure, much driving is unnecessary. A great deal of the activities human beings engage in is unnecessary. The level of housing many enjoy in the US is certainly unnecessary. For that matter the expenditure of resources that allow us to waste our time tapping out our opinions on laptops is hardly necessary. But few people are going to give up driving or anything else they wish to do simply because they realize it's unnecessary.
+1 ... again!
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Old 07-12-16, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Do you also go on the Jehovah Witness website to inform them how annoying they are?

At any rate, if you want to advance this discussion (and stay on topic), tell us why you have such strong negative response when you think cars are being attacked.
I have strong negative feeling when people try to tell me I don't need X just because they don't have and want X or when they tell me I MUST do Y just because they do Y.

Don't want an abortion, don't get one, don't tell me I shouldn't have one.
Don't like gay marriage, then don't marry your boyfriend, don't tell me who to marry.
Don't want a gun, don't buy one, don't tell me I shouldn't have one.
Don't want to eat meat, don't eat it, don't tell me I shouldn't eat it.
Don't want a car, don't buy one, don't tell me I shouldn't own one.
You want to praise Jesus, have fun, don't tell me I need your religion.

See how that works. Do whatever you like, just quit preaching about it.

When you try to tell others how to live and advocate that your way is better and that they don't know what is best for themselves, then I have a negative reaction.
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Old 07-12-16, 09:52 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by andr0id View Post
See how that works. Do whatever you like, just quit preaching about it.

When you try to tell others how to live and advocate that your way is better and that they don't know what is best for themselves, then I have a negative reaction.
Provoking negative reaction/responses with outrageously silly statements, political ranting, proselytizing and bizarre off the wall economic/environmental theories appears to be the name of the game as played on LCF. Double points awarded when the ranter claims victim-hood for his beliefs, triple points for yelping "Troll" at responders who don't "support" the groupthink routine expected from LCF posters.

None of the above applies to any posted theory or statement that actually meets the definition of being an actual Living Car Free topic as described in the header of this list: [Do you live car free or car light? Do you prefer to use alternative transportation (bicycles, walking, other human-powered or public transportation) for everyday activities whenever possible? Discuss your lifestyle here.]But when was the last time anyone has seen that sort of post on this list?
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Old 07-13-16, 01:00 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Some cyclists seem to think that bicycles are people and they even name their bicycles after people, this world is full of crazy people.

I don't have a girlfriend or children and all my cats are fixed, no more when they die.


Living Car Free is about finding ways to reduce your personal reliance on automobiles, not for shaming persons who do have cars, nor the elimination of cars from human society.


GOT IT?


This thread makes little sense and isn't on topic.
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Old 07-13-16, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
This thread makes little sense and isn't on topic.
Welcome to LCF. You must be new here.
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Old 07-13-16, 05:57 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
People like cars...
And cars are convenient.

Want to head 20 miles across town and get there in 1/2 hour, dry & refreshed?
Or want to head across town and get there in 2 hours on the bus, or 2 hours on the bike, and get soaked in the rain and drenched in sweat?

It takes some sacrifices to bike. Want to head 200 miles away with the family? One heck of a hard 200 mile bike ride... OR take some some kind of motorized transportation.

Head off to a trail 50 miles away with a horses for everyone. A day or two of riding to the there, or an hour in the pickup?

Living car free may be good for some people, but certainly not everyone all the time. And do you "cheat" with public transportation, or do you live your life in the circle you can reach on your two feet and bicycle?

It is easy to equate cars with their drivers. But in reality, they are just simple tools being used for a job. Of course requiring expensive public infrastructure, and quickly chewing up fuels sequestered on Earth from before the era of the dinosaurs.
The "sacrifices" to live carfree are felt as such only when you compare it to having a car. A bicycle increases your range over walking. A car increases your range over biking. Longer destinations become more convenient in either cases by about a factor of five or so.

But the places you feel a need to go to are largely about the way you design your life. If you have a car then you'll find 200 mile destinations much more convenient than on a bike. But a 2,000 destination won't be convenient without a jet. Most car drivers might say "OK but I don't regularly need to go 2,000 miles, so cars are still plenty-adequate for my needs". But a person with a jet is free to design their lives so they regularly "need" to go 2,000 miles and would find cars very limiting.

The range of convenient destinations is a little arbitrary. When it shrinks you can find a much more rich experience in that smaller range and will discover all kinds of places in your smaller world. It doesn't have to be limiting in a way that hits home. Especially if you now-enjoy the traveling much more, which is true of me.

The specific destination may not be as important as the quality of the journey.
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